Discussion Topic: Enemy At The Gates

[Jericho941]

After Enemy at the Gates, Call of Duty, etc., I'm sick to death of noble Soviet heroes. We might as well have some stories following Wehrmacht soldiers at this point.

[skb12172]

I find any Soviet hero to be a captivating story. What would inspire a man to do such things to protect such a heinous system which abuses him? Maybe the inspiration comes from protecting his friends and home, or maybe the Nazi's were simply worse in comparison...

[Jericho941]

They're so formulaic, though. The good guys call each other Comrade and slap each other on the back and swig vodka, and have a grand old time slaughtering Germans when they're not too busy murdering each other (either because the Commissar says so or because they're fragging the Commissar). A sniper girl comes along for a love interest, because all Russian women during WW2 were either snipers or fighter pilots, and nothing in between. A Russian choir sings powerfully throughout most of the movie, and the rest of the time they're poetically mournful. And we all come away from the movie a little wiser, knowing that the Commie Bastards are Just Like Us, only they murder surrendering enemies a lot more often, say Comrade all the time and talk funny.

The reality of the matter is that as long as you're focusing on the Eastern front, you could have the story be about a Russian soldier or a German one and it can be as sympathetic or unsympathetic as you'd like, because their governments were both evil and their were plenty of atrocities to go around on both sides.

[1991A1]

I read the book which was very good. The movie was not. I laughed out loud at the scenes in the abandoned department store that was still full of clothing on the racks. Like you would find untouched coats hanging around an empty store during a war-torn Russian winter.

[randy]

We might as well have some stories following Wehrmacht soldiers at this point.

Cross of Iron

[Fivetoes]

We might as well have some stories following Wehrmacht soldiers at this point.

Das Boot

[Weetabix]

I liked it. I'm pretty able to willingly suspend my disbelief and to self-filter for propaganda. Plus there was Rachel's butt.

Two things the commies did that were kind of pretty in and of themselves when you ignore content: music and propaganda posters.

ETA: and quit killing my buzz - I really wanted that left-handed Mosin.

[SeekHer]

Hate it. It is communist propaganda. There never was a Maj Konig, and there never was a Wermacht sniper school at Zossen (or anywhere else, for that matter). All of these were creations of Kruschev and his propaganda machine. As a matter of fact, the only thing that is accurate in the movie is the depiction of the Soviet propaganda machine.

Yes, there was a Vasily Zaitsev. He was a pawn. He might have had a couple of good shots (or not), but he had good looks, and the Soviet machine took over.

The movie "Shooter" with Mark Wahlberg was even more laughable, but at least I didn't have to sit through a communist propaganda film glorifying the motherland.

The movie "Sniper" with Tom Beringer wasn't too bad, but they never would have put him on a mission with the putz he had as his triggerman. At least they had enough sense to have Beringer (the senior guy) as spotter and junior guy as triggerman -- that's the way the USMC and US Army do it.

Zaitsev would have had more kills to his credit had they not went and made him a hero after hurting his knee at the end of the siege...There were far more snipers that had 2, 3 even four times the kills that he had and about 30% of them were woman...As you said he was a puppet used to bolster the spirits of the besieged soldiers and remaining population but that does not negate his kills...

Major Konig was real just not killed by Vassili and they did send a top rated sniper to take him out...

Yes, there was Sniper Training Schools back in Germany/Austria/Bavaria as well as mobile ones at the front...Wilna had a five month course, Mittenwald had a 10 week course but for Gebirgsjäger (Mountain troops) and at the base near Judenberg...By 1943 all the training centres had "marksmen" courses for the better shots as well as ones behind the lines in Russia to get the basics and then if they survived, were sent to Germany to get further training...

These books might be of interest:
Sniper on the Eastern Front: The Memoirs of Sepp Allerberger by Albrecht Wacker

SNIPER ACE: From the Eastern Front to Siberia by Bruno Sutkus

NOTES OF A RUSSIAN SNIPER by Vassili Zaitsev (Back ordered)
(Just ordered the last two from Casemate Publishers great election of military books)

For the effect of Russian sniper's on the German soldier the account by Captain William Lubbeck called AT LENINGRAD’S GATES: The Combat Memoirs of a Soldier with Army Group North is excellent...

For the effect of German snipers on the American soldiers A FOOT SOLDIER FOR PATTON: The Story of a "Red Diamond" Infantryman with the U.S. Third Army by Michael Bilder with James G. Bilder is worth reading

Grandfather’s Tale: The Tale of the German Sniper by Timothy Erenberger
Although fictional, but is based on the factual memoirs of a number of Wehrmacht soldiers and snipers…It’s also well written, good character development, well described battle scenes and the technical stuff is correct—what more can you ask for!

You know who trained Wahlberg for his role? Dr. Ignatius Piazza's Front Sight Firearms Training Institute and the trainer was Joe LeBleu author of Longrifle: A Sniper's Story in Iraq and Afghanistan

[Netpackrat]

After Enemy at the Gates, Call of Duty, etc., I'm sick to death of noble Soviet heroes. We might as well have some stories following Wehrmacht soldiers at this point.

Soldat

[skb12172]

Plus there was Rachel's butt.

Aye, yes there was. And a lovely one it was!

The reality of the matter is that as long as you're focusing on the Eastern front, you could have the story be about a Russian soldier or a German one and it can be as sympathetic or unsympathetic as you'd like, because their governments were both evil and their were plenty of atrocities to go around on both sides.

Too true, but I do love a well-told story. Plus, the Eastern Front still interests me because there have been so relatively few stories told about it. Like the rest of you, I grew up on the blue gazillion movies about the allies. Nice to have a new setting and new characters, every once in a while.

It's only fair, too, since the loss of life on the Eastern Front was so much greater. A Historian studying WWII 500 years from now, if they go mainly by the casualty counts, will mostly likely assume the war to have been a titanic struggle between the USSR and Germany, with the other countries playing relatively minor roles.