Urban SHTF: Shotgun or Pistol Caliber Carbine?

[Bullspit]

Fact: Birdshot is effective against humans at close range. Not as effective as buckshot but do you want to volunteer to stand up to be shot with birdshot at 20 feet? I know I sure don't! For the record, I wouldn't use anything smaller than 7 1/2 shot and larger would be fine. Choose based on how likely you think it is that you can risk over-penetration.

Two items. First "Birdshot is effective against humans at close range". No it's not. It does not have enough energy to penetrate to the CNS and is therefore not a proper defensive round. Sure you'll make a messy wound and that may stop the aggressor. Or it may not.

Secondly the whole "I don't want to be shot with it" is a fallacious argument. It makes no sense. No one wants to be shot with anything. Using this logic thrown pudding cups are an effective stopper because people don't like getting hit by them. The proper question is what would you rather be shot with, birdshot or buckshot? I would much rather be shot by birdshot, and therefore will be loading buck.

On not wanting to be shot with birdshot: You are correct, and I knew that when I wrote it. But someone stating that they know of a case or two of birdshot not stopping an assailant is not much better.

Perhaps we can agree to disagree about birdshot being effective on humans for the moment. I'll stipulate that it is not ideal. It is not as effective as buckshot. I will still contend that it is effective *enough* at close range, the types of ranges you find in your typical apartment or home for me to choose it in light of the danger of over penetration of other more effective rounds.

Perhaps I'm too worried about lawsuits because I live in California. What are your thoughts about the hazards of over penetration? The Box 0 Truth (love the site, shooting stuff is fun) says that # 4 buck penetrates 6 layers of drywall. In apartments where I lived there were two layers of drywall between my hallway and the neighbors, four layers between my master bedroom and the neighbors kid's bedroom. Would you be willing to own the liability of using buckshot if you lived in such a situation? Or would you have to make a tactical decision not to shoot under some circumstances because the probability of your shot over penetrating was too high?

As for the thread being about home defense or urban unrest? I thought both. I emphasized home defense but also addressed post SHTF in which case I would definitely choose the rifle. Which scenario is more likely? I think home defense.

[toad]

Well light weight frangible .223 has less penetration through sheet rock than either pistol or shot gun pellets. The drawback has been that occasionally you'll want penetration.

Last year our local big department had a problem with the .223 law enforcement rounds not defeating the front window glass of a car. It gets tricky if you try to have two types of rounds handy. You don't want the tungsten core stuff loaded when you are inside an apartment for instance. Personally I have a preference for a folding stock weapon in .223 or 7.62 X 39mm. Given the cost of things though, the pistol caliber carbine is going to have to do.

A shotgun with a rifled barrel and a red dot sight has some things going for it.

Yes that's the ticket you need at least four different firearms!

[Aglifter]

You always have to be concerned about taking, or not taking, the shot based on the backstop -- that's part of being a good private citizen v. a goblin or LEO.

With that said, honestly think about where you're likely to have to shoot -- if your neighbor's bedroom is really in a likely line of fire, I'd either harden the wall, or mentally accept that it's a "no shoot" area.


(I can't be the only person who's cringed at news footage of cops shooting w.o. any regard for where their bullets are going to land -- hopefully that plastic bullet idea can be developed a bit more...)

[Kommander]

Everything is a tradeoff. I live in an apartment, well a 4 plex actually, and as I mentioned I load bug shot. Honestly birdshot, while perhaps not usually lethal, will in most cases make your target reconsider his life choices. I just prefer to use something that will stop someone regardless of their pain tolerance or drug levels.

I must admit that the "I don't want to get shot by caliber X" really really bugs the hell out of me. I have seen that argument used to justify some really stupid shit. .22 carry guns and whatnot.

[Bullspit]

I'll never recommend birdshot for defense here again. No problem.

Whatever you use, do some careful consideration of what lies beyond your walls. You own the liability for every shot you fire.

[Combat Controller]

Heh, I can punch through drywall, but not a person. Chris already covered it so I will not repeat him here.

Shotgun I suppose as a pistol caliber carbine does not make sense when you already have a rifle.

[Netpackrat]

FWIW, about a year ago I switched out the bird shot for 00 buck in my HD shotgun on account of you guys. At that time, I discovered that my mag spring had gotten weak enough that it wouldn't feed the rounds properly, so you may qualify for a double save.

[308Mike]

I've been shot with birdshot, from a distance of about 50 feet - when my brother swung his 12-ga shotgun my direction while tracking a bird and the dumbshit SHOT ME, NOT THE BIRD!! I was PISSED!! It STUNG like hell, but at that distance failed to penetrate my surplus military field jacket (the old sateen 'Nam era ones). The few places where my skin got hit had little red marks, like mini blood blisters. We were shooting #8 birdshot.

I almost gave him a dose of the same medicine and might have if he hadn't immediately started apologizing profusely upon hearing me screaming at him for shooting me.

[postmanone]

The 12 gauge loaded with the following, four rounds double 00, 2 rounds of sabots, two dragon's breaths, and than another two 00. Also, mounted on shotgun a surefire with a 100 lumens of brightness. On the concealed shoulder unit, a 40 cal semi-auto,( type up to the individual) 16 shot mag, three extra mags, with tactical knife. Also, wearing a class III bullet proof vest IIIA.

Now if one could buy a Black Charger with all of the toys of a police car except the red lights, but everything else. Spot lights, front grill guard, with super bright white lights. Have the unit tricked out with semi-bullet proof cabin and engine-seen cost down to $4500.

[Precision]

just wondering, are dragon's breath legal to discharge where you live?

They aren't in Florida. I wouldn't swear to it, but I think you can own them, just not shoot them and MOST CERTAINLY NOT in a SD situation.

FYI