Ukraine invasion

[randy]

I found this interesting and a lot of his points track with what I've seen and read from various sources:

Sending their best" - Debunking the myth of Russian 'cannon fodder' in Ukraine

[g-man]

Putin (who don't forget, is the aggressor here, despite all the BS about being "threatened" by NATO et. al) has shown time and again in Syria, Georgia and his previous invasion of Ukraine, that to him war crimes are just another day in the office...

There's a lot of fog in the fog of war here, especially when all concerned media have been Soooooo forthcoming and straight-up with their facts for the last, well forever, etc., ad nauseum. We (the US) have pulled similar actions in other places, and there are reports of the Donbass region states declaring themselves independent, so when pushed again by the same people who have been laundering money and monkeying with elections in Ukraine since the Clinton era... I kinda see Vlad's point. That said, a justifiable military incursion to 'liberate' the Donbass doesn't also include a jaunt South from Belarus toward Kyiv. "We're just here to liberate ethnic Russians" doesn't hold up so well when you're attacking into the entire country.

The governments on both sides may be assholes (I'm not convinced on that), but the people of Ukraine have done nothing to deserve what is happening, so I have a clear picture of which side I hope wins. Which is NOT the same thing as supporting active intervention on their side against a nuclear armed power with an unstable barbarian as head of state. It it's a choice between Ukrainian civilians and a nuked US city or ten, well, sorry about that,

Can't argue with this... If people want to volunteer and go join the Ukrainian Foreign Legion, more power to 'em. But the governments (plural, as in all of them) are moronic assholes and all I've got is the deck crash scene from Red October running through my head.

[Vonz90]

The fact that you think Russia might actually surrender to Ukraine is even more astounding than some of the other tinfoil hat shit that you have been posting.

I never said I thought Russia would surrender to Ukraine.

I said the treatment of prisoners of war by Ukraine is criminal, disgusting, and reprehensible.

Lots of examples in history of similar actions by other groups, both with and without the regalia of Ukraine Azovs.

I think they are all reprehensible, whether committed by ISIS, Yahtzees, Japan, USSR or USA.

If you believe war crimes are acceptable because it's your team, I have no more words.

The question is not whether it happens, because it happens. The question is whether it is encouraged or tolerated or punished. I imagine that the Ukrainians are savy enough to figure out that it is not in their interest and clamp down on it, but we will see if they have enough institutional control to do anything effective.

[HTRN]

I think it may be the best solution the Ukrainians have come up with for dealing with POWs as they're not really in a position to detain them in POW camps - they're having a hard enough time feeding themselves.

[D5CAV]

I found this interesting and a lot of his points track with what I've seen and read from various sources:

Sending their best" - Debunking the myth of Russian 'cannon fodder' in Ukraine

Thanks! One of the more balanced pieces I've seen.

Here's some thoughts from "The Chieftain". Yeah, he's the young guy who did M1s 10 years after me. It's depressing to think a guy with white hair is the "young guy". I must be getting old: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9pVEP0AzZ4

Good points from "The Chieftain":
1. ATGMs and drones are not the end of tanks
2. Information is not intelligence
3. Selective Bias - we are only seeing successful attacks
4. You don't know what you don't know
5. Watch out for logic traps

[D5CAV]

I think it may be the best solution the Ukrainians have come up with for dealing with POWs as they're not really in a position to detain them in POW camps - they're having a hard enough time feeding themselves.

So they kneecapped Russian POWs because they were hungry? That's a bad excuse for war crimes.

As of a couple of years ago, Ukraine has 56,000 criminals incarcerated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ation_rate

I haven't seen reports that all those prisoners have been released. If they can afford to house and feed 56,000 prisoners, they can add a few more Russian soldiers. They haven't captured 50,000 yet.

Yes, the Japanese executed some American POWs a few times when they ran out of food and were about to get over-run by US forces, or sometimes just because they wanted to be d###s. When we found the Japanese who did that, we hanged them - for war crimes.

We also liberated many Japanese POW camps where the Japanese guards were about as malnourished as the American prisoners. Go look at some of those WW2 pictures. The Japanese guards have bones showing through and wearing ragged uniforms, almost as bad as the Americans. The only difference was they had guns and the Americans didn't. As evil as the Japanese were, at least they shared what little rice they had with their American prisoners.

It's a pretty sad statement if your ethics are below WW2 Japanese prison camp guards.

[BDK]

Oh, we could have definitely funded some research there. It wouldn’t make much sense, but that could be possible.

Back in the long, long ago, the Soviets did a lot of work on bacteriophage, as they had difficulty making antibiotics.

There was a group at A&M doing a lot of work with them - still is TMK. There might be some useful strain libraries still hanging around, etc.

Not sure what else they’d have to offer. Definitely more trustworthy than ChiComs though.

[D5CAV]

The question is whether it is encouraged or tolerated or punished. I imagine that the Ukrainians are savy enough to figure out that it is not in their interest and clamp down on it, but we will see if they have enough institutional control to do anything effective.

I hope it is the latter and not the former.

You make a good point about "Institutional Control". Things like this tell me Ukraine is about to go down hard. Rape, torture and murder are not done by well trained and disciplined soldiers with an effective chain of command. This kind of stuff is sometimes done by poorly trained and led conscripts, but usually done by irregulars (aka terrorists, depending on your POV), or gang members who got some uniforms and AK47s handed to them. This points to a breakdown in command and control.

If it is encouraged or even tolerated by the Ukraine government, then it is much worse. Then the Ukraine government are in the same category as the worst leaders of WW2 Germany or USSR.

[BDK]

I think you’re evaluating them by professional standards. US troops lost it, when the first encountered a death camp - and they weren’t rookies, TMK.

Some asshat has been shelling your home, hospitals, schools, etc to bring you under the boot of “FL”, and then wants to surrender…

Might be a hard thing for a volunteer/conscript to take - and I suspect it’d be hard to control US professional soldiers if they were fighting in their home town

[BDK]

I think this is where the fundamental difference comes in, between modern professional soldiers, and the “patriot.” Crowd.

The modern pro is being groomed into a warrior class, where, to an extent, war is a sport.

The only time the patriot seriously contemplates warfare, it involves the death of his family and destruction of his home.

I have seen a pro horrified when I suggested that to a small town resident, dropping a MOAB on his town/shelling it out of existence, is the same as a WMD.

In either case, it’s the eradication of his family, and all he knows.

No matter how it may be getting spun, Putin is in a war of eradication against Ukraine.

I’m not sure why Russian autocrats have such a need to massacre Ukrainians. The only reason I can think of is it’s because they cannot stand the idea that there might be Russian speakers who do not long for the heel of their jackboot on their throat.

I don’t know if Putin will learn that he cannot take Poland and Estonia from this, or if those nations will decide they have to start their counter terrorist efforts now, so that can bomb Moscow and St Petersburg if Russians shell their nations.

Not sure if Ukraine will realize there is no such thing as a successful defensive war, or not.