MERGED United Passenger Kicked Off/NO FIGHTING

[skb12172]

I have a good friend from high school who is a United pilot. He went the civilian route, not military. He is defending the airline as enthusiastically as any of the military guys, for what it's worth.

[Greg]

See what certain airline people - flight crew, possibly gate personnel - don't seem to understand, is that that 'default to compulsion' mindset that helped produce this United situation, is horrible.

People subjected to it come to hate it, and come to hate the people who do it to them.

But the people doing it fail to see anything wrong. So they default to compulsion, instead of the usual 'find a mutually agreeable trade or compromise' technique that most other people, who don't have gov't blessed hot and cold running compulsion on tap, are forced to use.

Even in the military, which is a system where following orders can be at least as important to survival as on an airliner, there is a robust system in place to differentiate between good orders and bad orders - orders that are unlawful and invalid. In fact, you even get in trouble for following a bad order.

Airliners are more extreme than military regimentation, where you don't even have civil rights. Apparently nobody has ever thought to consider the topic of what lawful and unlawful orders are on an airliner, what the acceptable scope of flight crew authority really is.

Flight crew seem all too aware of this, and seem willing to resort to 'obey or the Feds got my back' all too readily, for things that would, in light of common sense, really have nothing to do with the safe operation of the vehicle. WE NOTICED.

[Greg]

I have a good friend from high school who is a United pilot. He went the civilian route, not military. He is defending the airline as enthusiastically as any of the military guys, for what it's worth.

The only people I know on FB defending United are a pair of hardcore liberals. One is a married man - not sure what his husband's take on this is.

You'd think people so preoccupied with 'being oppressed by the system' would try less hard to justify oppression. But what do I know?

[Netpackrat]

See what airline people in particular don't seem to understand

Please check your friendly fire; I'm on your side, along with most other mechanics, I think.

Airliners are more extreme than military regimentation, where you don't even have civil rights. Apparently nobody has ever thought to consider the topic of what lawful and unlawful orders are on an airliner, what the acceptable scope of flight crew authority really is.

That is basically correct. However, I think you will find that those laws and regulations mostly date to a time when the airlines didn't get their definition of "service" from a manual on animal husbandry.

[First Shirt]

Interesting article here:

https://www.inc.com/cynthia-than/the-co ... tters.html

The good part:

Since the flight was not actually overbooked, but instead only fully booked, with the exact number of passengers as seats available, United Airlines had no legal right to force any passengers to give up their seats to prioritize others. What United did was give preference to their employees over people who had reserved confirmed seats, which would have been a violation of 14 CFR 250.2a (if the flight were overbooked, as United had originally claimed). Since Dr. Dao was already seated, it was clear that his seat had already been "reserved" and "confirmed" to accommodate him specifically.

[Greg]

See what airline people in particular don't seem to understand

Please check your friendly fire; I'm on your side, along with most other mechanics, I think.

Airliners are more extreme than military regimentation, where you don't even have civil rights. Apparently nobody has ever thought to consider the topic of what lawful and unlawful orders are on an airliner, what the acceptable scope of flight crew authority really is.

That is basically correct. However, I think you will find that those laws and regulations mostly date to a time when the airlines didn't get their definition of "service" from a manual on animal husbandry.

Sorry, I should clean that up. Was being careless... what I was thinking was 'flight crew and occasionally gate staff' what came out was 'airline people'.

[Weetabix]

I'd be interested to know the exact chain of events. If I understand it correctly, it went something like:
- full plane
- flight crew needs transport
- gate agent selects passengers to deplane (or someone else decided?)
- flight attendants inform passengers (or someone else?)
- three leave, one does not
- (then some other event or sequence of events)
- Chicago PD(?) beat the guy and drag him off

I'm kind of interested in a few things:
- who decided the level of persuasion at each step?
- after the Dr declared he wasn't going, did anyone else volunteer to take his place, or was it a mild version of a Kitty Genovessee thing?
- how was the deadhead crew received when they boarded?
- who is the lowest level person actually responsible for the whole thing? Not the CEO, but who could have controlled this?
- what are the rules, regulations, laws, or whatever that make this sequence of events OK in that person's mind?

[Weetabix]

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... eyre-wrong

Capitalism is unpopular for four reasons: banks, health-insurance companies, cable providers, and airlines. These all have something in common.

It's CRONY capitalism.

[Kommander]

Weetabix I read that the replacement crew was booed as they got on. Not really their fault but they were the most immediately available targets for the passengers displeasure. Also I'm not sure its fair to compare this with Genovessee. Its one thing to ignore someones calls for help when being attacked by a criminal, its another when the state is doing it. When the cops showed up trying to get involved would likely result in them dragging two people off the pane instead of just one.

[skb12172]

Weetabix I read that the replacement crew was booed as they got on. Not really their fault but they were the most immediately available targets for the passengers displeasure. Also I'm not sure its fair to compare this with Genovessee. Its one thing to ignore someones calls for help when being attacked by a criminal, its another when the state is doing it. When the cops showed up trying to get involved would likely result in them dragging two people off the pane instead of just one.

Yup and the general public isn't quite ready to take that step...yet.