P3AT fail.... was .380 Goodness

[Netpackrat]

Made it to the range with the P3AT tonight... It didn't suffer a single failure to feed, however, I did experience a number of failures to extract with my carry ammo (Hydrashoks). Figuring that is probably due to the extra power recoil springs, I field stripped it and reached into my range bag for the new standard power spring set.

Except it wasn't there. I would have sworn I had tossed it into the bag with the rest of my .380 stuff, but no... It was still in a box on my work bench at home.



It must be some sort of law of nature, that I cannot make a trip to the range without forgetting something important. Last time it was my spotting scope. Next time it will probably be something else. More to follow.

[Kommander]

Make a range list perhaps?

[Netpackrat]

That would make too much sense. Not sure if it would have helped in this instance, since the extra spring set wouldn't have been a routine item. It's now installed in the pistol anyway, so I'm more or less ready to go. I may be able to get out there Sunday morning and hopefully put the issue to bed. If it doesn't, I'll probably start shopping for a new pocket carry.

[Netpackrat]

Looks like I need to start shopping for a replacement pistol. I tried this again with the standard weight springs today, and after the first 2-3 mags went through the gun without any problems, I was starting to think that maybe all was well with the P3AT again. Unfortunately, it did not last, and I started getting both failures to extract and failures to feed again. I may try some hotter ammo than the Hydrashoks... If I can get it working reliably again with something, then at least I can sell it with a clear conscience.

[evan price]

Send it back to KelTec, they will fix it free.
My first PF9 I was about to chuck it into the creek with all the problems I had. It was a very early serial number pistol. Fail to feed, fail to eject, fail to fire, trigger wouldn't reset, the mag kept falling out. Last thing, the head of the takedown pin sheared off.
Last resort sent it in and KT sent me back my barrel with a new pistol under it. That made all the difference in the world.

[JustinR]

Looks like I need to start shopping for a replacement pistol. I tried this again with the standard weight springs today, and after the first 2-3 mags went through the gun without any problems, I was starting to think that maybe all was well with the P3AT again. Unfortunately, it did not last, and I started getting both failures to extract and failures to feed again. I may try some hotter ammo than the Hydrashoks... If I can get it working reliably again with something, then at least I can sell it with a clear conscience.

What kind of failures were you seeing? Has the geometry of the extractor been altered enough to be interfering with feeding and not catching the rim on extracting?

You asked about the Kahr P380, I've carried a PM9 in a pocket holster for ten years now. The gun was a little tight on the break in, and my original barrel had to be replaced by Kahr because it was peening at the front of the ejection port, but after they took care of it and gave me a new barrel, I have had zero problems. On several occasions, I've specifically taken it out of my pocket at the range after it's been carried for months, with all the dust and pocket lint buildup if I haven't cleaned it in a while, and shot it "as is" to test reliability, and it's been 100%. I carried Gold Dots until Hornady came out with their Critical Duty line. Many people comment the slide release has sharp edges, but can be smoothed. I bought several sets of rubberized DECAL GRIP from Gandolf a few years ago and the gripping surface is much better, the first set I put on the gun is still attached. I did cut small strips from the sheet and add them to the front of the grip, and it's really easy to shoot for such a small gun.

pm9.jpg

[Netpackrat]

What kind of failures were you seeing? Has the geometry of the extractor been altered enough to be interfering with feeding and not catching the rim on extracting?

I haven't done anything to the extractor, other than remove and reinstall for cleaning the other night. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary about it, or any unusual wear marks. Initially I was seeing failures to feed/chamber. Now I am seeing those, plus failures to extract.

This seems to make some sense... With the original KT springs, it was having the failures to feed. Previously, the pistol would only do that when I let it get really dirty. Something appears to have changed, to the point where the original recoil springs were no longer getting the job done. The "extra power" Wolff springs appear to have solved the failures to feed, but instead substituted failures to extract. Lightening up to Wolff "standard power" recoil springs still gives the failures to extract, and brought back the failures to feed. It may be that the Wolff "standard power" springs are still stronger than original, unworn KT springs... Dunno. What I do know is that going one way or the other will apparently solve one of the problems, but something else has changed to where there is no point of balance where the pistol just runs. Hence why I am considering trying some hotter ammo, just to get it running.

I'm not sure if it is worth the effort and expense of sending it back to KT... I will need to look into that. I've never shipped a firearm before, and I don't know how much "Alaska" cost is built into it. In the meantime, I have grown dependant enough on pocket carry (at least under some circumstances), that I don't want to wait around for it to go to the factory and come back. I need something closer to now. I don't really have anything else that can fill that role (the P230 will fit into a pants pocket, but really it is just too big), so what this episode shows me more than anything is that I need to have a spare pocket gun, no matter what else I end up doing. I had just hoped to have more time to choose one.

[JustinR]

Well, if the extractor spring isn't worn, different ammo doesn't solve it, and it's going to be too expensive to ship back, you could always take some Flitz and polish the inside of the chamber. It might reduce the coefficient of friction enough for the extractor to retain it's grip on the rim with the extra power springs installed.

[Vonz90]

Bit of a troubleshooting thought for you.

I think you said you already traded out the magazine springs. If the force of those springs is higher than spec, then it will cause an increase in friction of the rounds to the magazine lips and thus potentially lead to FTF. Maybe try a new (stock) magazine or try it with the old springs.

YMMV

[Netpackrat]

Yeah... I'm done fucking with it, and I need a viable pocket gun now. I am going to put all the stock (worn) springs back in it, and look into shipping it back to Keltec. If they can make it right again, I will then have to decide whether to sell it or keep it as a spare.

Drove around town to 5 different gunshops looking at pocket guns today... At the 3rd stop, I finally found a Kahr in .380, but it was the CW (cheaper) version and not the P380. Turns out I didn't care for it. The size is good, but it felt gritty when I operated the slide; perhaps the more expensive version is better. To be fair, the P3AT feel wise isn't much to write home about either, except for its size.

There was a used Smith 442 J frame for $435 at the first shop, and I was probably going to buy either that or a SW Bodyguard .380... A buddy has the Bodyguard, and I know he had to send it back to Smith to have the mag catch fixed, but I think it has been solid since then. I was going to call him and ask if he still liked it, when decided to go back to a police supply/gunshop that I visited last week. I was pretty much focused on finding a Kahr to handle at that time, so I didn't really look at their other offerings much. Glad I went back there, because they had a NEW 442 for $400, which I purchased on the spot. No lock, +P rated... I bought a couple boxes of Gold Dots (the LE marked boxes of 50), some speed strips, and a Safariland speed loader.

So, I am back in the .38 revolver business, again. I'd gotten rid of all my .38 stuff (for the second time) when I sold the last one, other than reloading dies. It's definitely bigger than the .380 options I was considering, but it has a nice shape to it, and I can still get hold of it and get it out of my pants pocket easily enough, and I can't say the same for my Sig P230 that I have been using while the KT is down. It has all the usual revolver disadvantages (low capacity, slow reload, thickness), but given the trouble with the KT, there is something to be said for a gun that I can run a box or two through, and know with some certainty that I can trust it to work. Any new semi I would have to shoot it a lot more before I really trusted it.

Some other background; when I bought the P230 20 years ago, the other gun I looked at was a 442. I've never regretted buying the SIG because it is a sweet shooting pistol, a fair carry piece, and I have had many hours of enjoyment just shooting it, but I always kind of wished I had bought the 442. Except being pre-96, that one wouldn't have been +P rated. So in a way I have kind of come full circle. I'm really glad I went back to the other shop and found the new one. It wasn't the last one they had either, since they left the display unit in the case, and pulled mine from a back room.