2 questions re: propane tank and new furnace

[Dedicated_Dad]

(1) What's a fair price for me to buy a (edit: I mean our existing, already buried) 20-year-old, 500-gal, in-ground propane tank from our current provider? He told me "$2300" which is what his competitor will charge me to deliver and bury a BRAND NEW ONE. Jack@$$.

I'm going to write them a letter, offering a fair price and telling them they can accept it or come remove their tank from my property. If I'm going to pay for "new" I'm going to spend another $500 and get a 1000-gal. tank.

I need to know how much to offer them. Competitor said "$500" but then he wants my business so he'd like them to come get it. I need "unbiased" opinion...

(2) is there a way to determine the MAX amount of propane my furnace can burn per hour? It's fully modulating burner, so it can run from 35-100%... I'd like to calculate the MAX rate so as to estimate the high-end cost of running... It's the "98%" 100k BTU model here http://www.yorkupg.com/PDFFiles/410821-YTG-B-1008.pdf

Thanks for the input!!

DD

[Combat Controller]

You are over thinking it. Offer him the $500, it is 20 years old after all. It will cost him at least that much to come get it. Otherwise tell him it has to be out by first of the year or whatever. If he does retrieve it he will have to rehab it next, it is just not worth it. He is an asshole, you might want to make him come get it just to show him his desire to not deal fairly and rip you off is outweighed by a shiny new 1000 gal tank.

[HTRN]

CC is on the money, only I'd offer him even less. Used tanks are worth much less, and because it's a buried tank, he'd also have to sell a new bag for it. Considering that he already made his money on it, several times over, I'd offer him 200 bucks, or tell him he has 30 days to come get, or you'll consider it abandoned.

Gasco sells new 500 gallon aboveground tanks for $1600, and aboveground 1K gallon tanks for $2500. Another place you might want to check for prices is Missiongas(San Antonio, Texas), also Douglas Tank. Buried tanks are more, because of the bag, and because of excavation, sand backfill, etc. Demanding new price, for a 20 year old tank THAT HE HAS TO DO NOTHING FOR is just out and out greed.

If you do get another tank, I would suggest you also get "wet" fittings, so you can refill your own "barbecue" tanks. Technically, this is a nono(you're supposed to be certified), but considering the cost difference between refilling a 20lb tank, and buying it in bulk, it makes financial sense.


HTRN

[Netpackrat]

If you do get another tank, I would suggest you also get "wet" fittings, so you can refill your own "barbecue" tanks. Technically, this is a nono(you're supposed to be certified), but considering the cost difference between refilling a 20lb tank, and buying it in bulk, it makes financial sense.

How difficult is it to get certified?

[HTRN]

What you have to go through to get the cert? Hell if I know.


To be honest, you don't need it. A little common sense, a little knowledge and getting the fittings(Protanksupply sells 'em, among others) is all you need. Keep in mind, you have to have a dip tube, that takes liquid from the bottom, rather than vapor from the top(hence the term "wet" fittings)

And oh, a 500 gallon tank does not actually hold 500 gallons. All propane tanks are only filled 80%(for thermal expansion and vaporization).


HTRN

[Dedicated_Dad]

CC is on the money, only I'd offer him even less. Used tanks are worth much less, and because it's a buried tank, he'd also have to sell a new bag for it. Considering that he already made his money on it, several times over, I'd offer him 200 bucks, or tell him he has 30 days to come get, or you'll consider it abandoned.
...
Demanding new price, for a 20 year old tank THAT HE HAS TO DO NOTHING FOR is just out and out greed. ...

All good points, and basically how I was leaning, but I also have the personally-important matter of "The Golden Rule." I personally don't believe it's OK *FOR ME* to be a jerk just because someone else is... I do my best to live my life in such a way that no "neutral" person can think I mistreated anyone, ever. Even in my current "strapped" condition, if it costs me a few bucks to keep my conscience and reputation clear, it's money well spent IMHO. I'll get my revenge by pointing out to anyone else who will listen how I was treated by this company, and that they can buy their tank and cut their fuel-cost by 25%+.

Sounds to me like the general consensus is "$500 or come get it" is an inarguably fair and reasonable offer under the circumstances? If anyone disagrees, please let me know... I'll probably write and mail my letter tomorrow...

...If you do get another tank, I would suggest you also get "wet" fittings, so you can refill your own "barbecue" tanks. ... HTRN

HTRN: Can these fittings be added to my existing tank? I've researched the possibility of adding a "branch" to the underground line to feed my grill direct - according to my research the grill's regulator is capable of handling it (they sell the same grill sans-cart for "permanent" install), but I also like the portability of the tank... I hope to get my floating dock repaired this year, and would like to be able to roll the grill out there for summer fun...

Propane has 21,548 BTU per pound. Presume a maximum true end to end efficiency of 80% and you get somewhere around 5-3/4lbs per hour maximum burn.

A 500 gallon tank holds 2120lbs of propane; for about 370 hours minimum burn time in "standard" conditions.

Furnace is 98% AFUE - the exhaust and condensate are literally below room temp, close to ambient in my unheated garage...

We've gone through ~75-90 gallons of propane (15-18% of the tank) - between the pool heater and the furnace - since the install. The furnace has run for ~64 hours, meaning I'm averaging in the vicinity of 1.25 gallons used BY THE HOUSEHOLD for every hour the furnace runs. As expected, this is less than half our previous usage - actually closer to 1/3 all things considered... Bastards... It really kills me to think how much propane I've wasted over the years - I could be driving a BMW, or have knocked 4-5 years off my mortgage. Now this jerk wants to bend me over for the tank??!!

Seems to me the furnace and the pool-heater's fuel use are both going to range up and down with the ambient temperature, so this is still a good "rule of thumb" that should allow me to track our future usage. Obviously I need more data to test the hypothesis, but for now it's about where I had hoped it would be!.

Ever seen a cripple do a happy-dance?

DD

PS: Yep - knew about the "80%" thing - already considered that...

[Dedicated_Dad]

...Keep in mind, you have to have a dip tube, that takes liquid from the bottom, rather than vapor from the top(hence the term "wet" fittings) ..."

I **THINK** it already has the "dip tube" - I think local code requires them so the tank can be pumped empty if required...

I know when I talked to the guy about the new tank, he told me they'd have to come pump it empty (and refund me the cost of the recovered gas - he advised making sure they did so on a LIFO basis) then fill it with nitrogen (to prevent explosion) before they could dig it up and transport it...

I could certainly be wrong though - I'll check and find out for sure...

DD

PS: I swear, I haven't been drinking, but have to say "I love you guys." Noplace else I know can I go and get good advice, and correct answers to almost any question from a bunch of damn fine people...

I really appreciate it!!

[HTRN]

DD, it has nothing to do with being a "jerk" - you paid the lease for 20 years, you were probably locked in to him as a supplier(were you?) meaning you probably paid more for LP than the going rate..

He made his money, probably several times over. To be honest, I'm surprised there isn't an option to buy clause in the lease.(is there?) Often with stuff like this(moderate value, long lease time) if there is an option, it's for a buck - case in point - Haas Automations standard lease contracts had an option to buy for a grand... On machines that range in price from very expensive cars, to moderately priced houses. A $1 option to buy would not be surprising on something that costs $1500 new, with a long(10 year+) lease..

As for a Dip tube, I'd put money on it, for the reasons you mentioned, and also because adding them after you started using them is kinda a hassle. Look for something marked "Wet", "Bottom" "Dip tube" etc. Most of the larger, stationary tanks have multiple bulkhead fittings. The fun part is going to be if it doesn't already have a valve on it of some kind and instead has a plug(which I severely doubt).

Like I said, all it takes is a little common sense, a little knowledge, and some hose and fittings. I believe theres a video on Youtube that shows how to fill a 20lb LPG tank.


HTRN

[Netpackrat]

What you have to go through to get the cert? Hell if I know.


To be honest, you don't need it. A little common sense, a little knowledge and getting the fittings(Protanksupply sells 'em, among others) is all you need. Keep in mind, you have to have a dip tube, that takes liquid from the bottom, rather than vapor from the top(hence the term "wet" fittings)

It may be physically simple to do, but if the cost of compliance is "relatively" simple and cheap, why give anybody a pretext for causing problems later on? If it is too much hassle and/or expense, forget I asked. You'll never know unless you do the research, discreetly, of course.

[HTRN]

You may not be able to legally do it even WITH a cert. Zoning laws, licenses to dispense, etc.

You may not even be able to take the course without a tax ID for a propane business. The cert may require a 300 hour course..

Then again, you may not need anything at all. Requirements vary from state to state, and even from County to county. Best bet is to ask your local gas supplier about it.


HTRN