COP NOW CARRIES 145 ROUNDS ON DUTY

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skb12172
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COP NOW CARRIES 145 ROUNDS ON DUTY

Post by skb12172 »

Of course, according to research quoted in the FBI thread article, the average LEO misses 70% - 80% of their shots fired on duty. Maybe he should invest in more/better training, instead of hoisting all that ammo around while on duty, which is probably going to end up being left in the cruiser, just like his AR-15 and Remington 870 were? Just sayin'. What do you think?

Fire Away!
Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty.

Today, he carries 145, “every day, without fail.”

He detailed the gunfight that caused the difference in a gripping presentation at the annual conference of the Assn. of SWAT Personnel-Wisconsin.

At the core of his desperate firefight was a murderous attacker who simply would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition — six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.

The most threatening encounter in Gramins’ nearly two-decade career with the Skokie (Ill.) PD north of Chicago came on a lazy August afternoon prior to his promotion to sergeant, on his first day back from a family vacation. He was about to take a quick break from his patrol circuit to buy a Star Wars game at a shopping center for his son’s eighth birthday.

An alert flashed out that a male black driving a two-door white car had robbed a bank at gunpoint in another suburb 11 miles north and had fled in an unknown direction. Gramins was only six blocks from a major expressway that was the most logical escape route into the city.

Unknown at the time, the suspect, a 37-year-old alleged Gangster Disciple, had vowed that he would kill a police officer if he got stopped.

“I’ve got a horseshoe up my ass when it comes to catching suspects,” Gramins laughs. He radioed that he was joining other officers on the busy expressway lanes to scout traffic.

He was scarcely up to highway speed when he spotted a lone male black driver in a white Pontiac Bonneville and pulled alongside him. “He gave me ‘the Look,’ that oh-crap-there’s-the-police look, and I knew he was the guy,” Gramins said.

Gramins dropped behind him. Then in a sudden, last-minute move the suspect accelerated sharply and swerved across three lanes of traffic to roar up an exit ramp. “I’ve got one running!” Gramins radioed.

The next thing he knew, bullets were flying. “That was four years ago,” Gramins said. “Yet it could be ten seconds ago.”

With Gramins following close behind, siren blaring and lights flashing, the Bonneville zigzagged through traffic and around corners into a quite pocket of single-family homes a few blocks from the exit. Then a few yards from where a 10-year-old boy was skateboarding on a driveway, the suspect abruptly squealed to a stop.

“He bailed out and ran headlong at me with a 9 mm Smith in his hand while I was still in my car,” Gramins said.

The gunman sank four rounds into the Crown Vic’s hood while Gramins was drawing his .45-cal. Glock 21.

“I didn’t have time to think of backing up or even ramming him,” Gramins said. “I see the gun and I engage.”

Gramins fired back through his windshield, sending a total of 13 rounds tearing through just three holes.

A master firearms instructor and a sniper on his department’s Tactical Intervention Unit, “I was confident at least some of them were hitting him, but he wasn’t even close to slowing down,” Gramins said.

The gunman shot his pistol dry trying to hit Gramins with rounds through his driver-side window, but except for spraying the officer’s face with glass, he narrowly missed and headed back to his car.

Gramins, also empty, escaped his squad — “a coffin,” he calls it — and reloaded on his run to cover behind the passenger-side rear of the Bonneville.

Now the robber, a lanky six-footer, was back in the fight with a .380 Bersa pistol he’d grabbed off his front seat. Rounds flew between the two as the gunman dashed toward the squad car.

Again, Gamins shot dry and reloaded.

“I thought I was hitting him, but with shots going through his clothing it was hard to tell for sure. This much was certain: he kept moving and kept shooting, trying his damnedest to kill me.”

In this free-for-all, the assailant had, in fact, been struck 14 times. Any one of six of these wounds — in the heart, right lung, left lung, liver, diaphragm, and right kidney — could have produced fatal consequences…“in time,” Gramins emphasizes.

But time for Gramins, like the stack of bullets in his third magazine, was fast running out.

In his trunk was an AR-15; in an overhead rack inside the squad, a Remington 870.

But reaching either was impractical. Gramins did manage to get himself to a grassy spot near a tree on the curb side of his vehicle where he could prone out for a solid shooting platform.

The suspect was in the street on the other side of the car. “I could see him by looking under the chassis,” Gramins recalls. “I tried a couple of ricochet rounds that didn’t connect. Then I told myself, ‘Hey, I need to slow down and aim better.’ ”

When the suspect bent down to peer under the car, Gramins carefully established a sight picture, and squeezed off three controlled bursts in rapid succession.

Each round slammed into the suspect’s head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain. At long last the would-be cop killer crumpled to the pavement.

The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably — but fortunately — he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go.

Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.

Two houses and a parked Mercedes in the vicinity had been struck by bullets, but with no casualties. The young skateboarder had run inside yelling at his dad to call 911 as soon as the battle started and also escaped injury. Despite the fusillade of lead sent his way, Gramins’ only damage besides glass cuts was a wound to his left shin. His dominant emotion throughout his brush with death, he recalls, was “feeling very alone, with no one to help me but myself.”

Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system.

He was transported to a trauma center where Gramins also was taken. They shared an ER bay with only a curtain between them as medical personnel fought unsuccessfully to save the robber’s life.

At one point Gramins heard a doctor exclaim, “We may as well stop. Every bag of blood we give him ends up on the floor. This guy’s like Swiss cheese. Why’d that cop have to shoot him so many times!”

Gramins thought, “He just tried to kill me! Where’s that part of it?”

When Gramins was released from the hospital, “I walked out of there a different person,” he said.

“Being in a shooting changes you. Killing someone changes you even more.” As a devout Catholic, some of his changes involved a deepening spirituality and philosophical reflections, he said without elaborating.

At least one alteration was emphatically practical.

Before the shooting, Gramins routinely carried 47 rounds of handgun ammo on his person, including two extra magazines for his Glock 21 and 10 rounds loaded in a backup gun attached to his vest, a 9 mm Glock 26.

Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun. Besides all that, he’s got 90 rounds for the AR-15 that now rides in a rack up front.

Paranoia?

Gramins shook his head and said “Preparation.”
Article Side Box
Expert Analysis

Lessons learned from facing an “invincible” assailant
By Charles Remsberg

Sgt. Timothy Gramins who fired 17 .45-cal. rounds into a hell-bent suspect before putting him down offers these lessons learned from his extraordinary fight for his life:

1.) Beef up your ammo reserves. “A lot more rounds are being exchanged in today’s gunfights than in the past. With offenders carrying heavier weapons, going on patrol with just a handgun and two extra magazines no longer cuts it. Carry more ammo. Always have a backup gun. Carry a loaded rifle where you can reach it. I can’t express how quickly your firearm will go empty when you’re shooting for real. There’s no worse feeling than pulling the trigger and hearing it go ‘click’.”

2.) Practice head shots. “When you fire multiple ‘lethal’ rounds into an attacker and he keeps going, you don’t have the luxury of waiting 20 or 40 more seconds for him to die while he can still shoot at you. Don’t waste time arguing the relative merits of various calibers. No handgun rounds have reliable stopping power with body shots. Pick the round you can shoot best and practice shooting at the suspect’s head.”
LINK!
There must be an end to this intimidation by those who come to this great country, but reject its culture.
Aesop
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Re: COP NOW CARRIES 145 ROUNDS ON DUTY

Post by Aesop »

Brilliant.
So after establishing that the three critical shots were the ones that ended the fight, his default "solution" is to carry more rounds to make even more non-vital shots with.
And end up slower, and liable to retire with back problems from daily carry.
If he'd simply decide to practice making headhsots under stress, he could switch to a wheelgun with one speedloader if he wanted.

"I could see that harsh language wasn't working, so my solution is to deploy a bullhorn". :?
"There are four types of homicide: felonious, accidental, justifiable, and praiseworthy." -Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
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Yogimus
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Re: COP NOW CARRIES 145 ROUNDS ON DUTY

Post by Yogimus »

Yep. 145 rounds every day. I think it is a security blanket and a way for him to deal with the trauma.
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skb12172
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Re: COP NOW CARRIES 145 ROUNDS ON DUTY

Post by skb12172 »

Aesop makes good points, but I think Yogi has nailed the heart of the issue. Counseling and/or a desk job would do him more good than the extra rounds. I write that with all respect and sympathy for the officer.
There must be an end to this intimidation by those who come to this great country, but reject its culture.
Aesop
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Re: COP NOW CARRIES 145 ROUNDS ON DUTY

Post by Aesop »

If he'd had the wit to say, "Geez, I fucked up, I spazzed and drove right into the kill zone, when I should've stopped, ripped into reverse, put the car over sideways for a little cover, and grabbed that AR and ventilated the motherfucker with headshots from 50-80 yards" he'd be a jetfuel genius.

The reality is he came within one lucky perp round of becoming the next Newhall Massacre/Miami Shootout object lesson in fucking up by the numbers.
"There are four types of homicide: felonious, accidental, justifiable, and praiseworthy." -Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
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skb12172
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Re: COP NOW CARRIES 145 ROUNDS ON DUTY

Post by skb12172 »

Um…what is a jetfuel genius? Google-fu didn't really tell me much. :?:
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BDK
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Re: COP NOW CARRIES 145 ROUNDS ON DUTY

Post by BDK »

I realize its hokey, and romantizied, but there's an old radio show, Tales of the Texas Rangers, available as podcasts. Highly entertaining. One of the things it discussed was only loading 5 rounds, and leaving the chamber under the hammer empty, and that "if you missed with 5, the sixth shot isn't likely to do you much good."

Which is very sound - to slow down, and aim, is something promoted by every competitive shooter, and attributed to Wyatt Earp.

Its one of the reasons I like to shoot my revolver in Steel Challenge - by forcing myself to treat each run as one which cannot have any misses, I become much more consistent, and controlled. (Despite the different trigger pulls, iron sights, no comp, etc, etc - there's only about .5s more on a run, after only one match w. my revolver.)

Every CCW'er should do some practice runs w. a clothed, 3D target - chest vitals are tricky.
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D5CAV
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Re: COP NOW CARRIES 145 ROUNDS ON DUTY

Post by D5CAV »

His first smart move was switching to all 9mm Luger from a combination of 9mm and .45 ACP.

Prior load:
37rds of .45ACP is about 1.7 lbs
10rds of 9mm luger is about is about 0.27 lbs
Total ammo load: about 2.0 lbs

Current load:
145rds of 9mm Luger is about 3.8 lbs

He's added less than 2 lbs to his load. I'm guessing he can stand to lose about 2 lbs around his gut if he gives up one donut per day.

More ammo is always good. As an old sergeant used to tell us, "boys, I'm not going to ask you to carry any more than you think you can carry, but if you're going to carry any extra, it better be ammo. I'm your sergeant. It's my job to fix things. I can fix hungry, I can fix thirsty, and I can fix cold. Fixing dead is above my pay grade."

IIRC our combat load was more like 300rds of 5.56 NATO.

Of course , we were expected to deal with more than one BG at a time. He does need to learn to shoot better.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Aesop
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Re: COP NOW CARRIES 145 ROUNDS ON DUTY

Post by Aesop »

skb12172 wrote:Um…what is a jetfuel genius? Google-fu didn't really tell me much. :?:
...I'm a jetfuel genius, I can solve the world's problems, without even trying...

80s music FTW.
"There are four types of homicide: felonious, accidental, justifiable, and praiseworthy." -Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
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Erik
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Re: COP NOW CARRIES 145 ROUNDS ON DUTY

Post by Erik »

BDK wrote:Which is very sound - to slow down, and aim, is something promoted by every competitive shooter, and attributed to Wyatt Earp.
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final."
That's also attributed to Wyatt Earp, but I'm not sure if it's a real quote or from a movie. Either way it's true, and I've adopted it as my competition motto. I keep telling the beginners that as well.

One thing I've learned competing is that it takes a lot more time to make a make-up shot (shoot again because you missed the first time) than it takes to actually aim and hit the first time. Even though it's competition and not real life I think that's a good lesson. After all a target wont shoot back while you are busy making that extra shot.
"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid."
John Wayne
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