Rem 870 Masterthread: Which model, accessories, why?

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D5CAV
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Re: Rem 870 Masterthread: Which model, accessories, why?

Post by D5CAV »

Netpackrat wrote:During your time in, how many times did you see US forces defend a house from the inside, as a homeowner would?
As a homeowner would? Never.

If anyone had to "defend" a "house" they were part of a fire team. In addition to M16s, they had M240s, M203s and M67 grenades. The one "home defense" item I really miss in that mix are the M67s. You can keep the rest.

I didn't say that a shotgun wouldn't work for someone else as a home defense weapon. I just don't feel it is my choice.

I hear a lot of people, who also have no experience with defending a house from the inside, claiming that the shotgun is the ultimate home defense weapon. I'm not one of those believers.

I know two home invasion survivors. One individual, one couple. Both were surprised. One had a dog, who either slept through the event or was cowering someplace - either way, the dog did not provide warning. Both had guns, however they were locked-up for "safety", and effectively unavailable.

Both now have shotguns, handguns and rifles hidden in convenient places around the house. Loaded. One has a "lupara" by the bed - a cut down double barrel shotgun with double triggers. If I had a shotgun to keep by the bedside, that would be my choice.

The one who had the dog now has three dogs. Two are yippy and obnoxious little dogs. One is a seriously large, quiet and professionally trained attack dog.

One other minor lesson from their experience. They both have a couple of T-mobile or Walmart "drop phones" hidden in the house. They tell me their biggest PITA is remembering to keep them charged (911 calls don't require "minutes"). The guns don't require much attention - shoot once a year (or maybe it was last year), clean, reload.

I've done some training at Gunsite. One of the classes included home defense scenario training. That training included "combat" style shotguns, carbines and pistols.

As a result of that training, talking through scenarios, and talking to my friends who dealt with home invasions, I decided my mode of response would focus on handgun, then rifle. Too many weapons gets too confusing, especially when it's in the dark, I'm half asleep, and panic is setting in. It's hard enough in the middle of the day in a "fun house" exercise.

Why rifle and not shotgun? If a handgun doesn't solve the problem, a shotgun won't either. If I've gone to slide lock with my handgun and the problem is still there, then I'm reaching for the rifle, not another magazine. At that point, over-penetration of my rifle rounds is the least of my concerns. I also don't want to be deciding between reaching for a magazine, a shotgun or a rifle with my mind foggy and confusion whirling around me. Just drop the pistol and grab the rifle.

That's just my inexperienced opinion. To each his own.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Netpackrat
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Re: Rem 870 Masterthread: Which model, accessories, why?

Post by Netpackrat »

My point isn't that I have any more than theoretical experience; it was simply that I don't find observations of military operations to be applicable at all to a home defense scenario, because if the military is involved with home invasion, it is in the role of the aggressor/invader. And I think that for purposes of this discussion, we can disregard even that, since the odds of facing the 82nd airborne breaking into your house is low, and in any event, you are probably fucked no matter what if they do. Although compared to a police SWAT raid, the family pets may fare better.

I have posted in the past, if you read the "Armed Citizen" column each month in the NRA magazine, you start to see some patterns. One of those is in a home invasion, the resident is usually busy getting his ass kicked, stabbed, and/or shot during the interval of time it takes him to retrieve the gun that he should have had on him in the first place. The folks that can't get to their gun, or didn't have one, don't make it into the "Armed Citizen" in the magazine.

Whenever somebody asks me why I keep my pistol on, even in my house, I ask if they knew that 100% of home invasions take place in the home? It isn't a "home defense" weapon for me; it's just my carry gun. My ability to stash weapons throughout my home is limited by the fact that I have a toddler running around, so it's the carry gun, and a shotgun that I can get to and he can't, which I can fight (or more accurately, retreat) my way to, if there is a problem that for some reason can't be solved with the pistol.

If you prefer a carbine chambered in a pistol caliber, or an intermediate rifle cartridge, then rock on with your bad self. If I had aspirations of clearing my house, or even going outside my house to take the fight to the enemy, I would certainly arm myself with an AK rather than a standard length shotgun. But although it has a few disadvantages (length, low capacity, slow to reload), for a guy holed up with his family, lying in wait for intruders who have already entered the house, there is no more devastating close range weapon than a properly loaded shotgun.

As for the double barrel shotgun, I would not make any gun that held only two shots part of my defense plan.
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D5CAV
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Re: Rem 870 Masterthread: Which model, accessories, why?

Post by D5CAV »

Netpackrat wrote:My point isn't that I have any more than theoretical experience; it was simply that I don't find observations of military operations to be applicable at all to a home defense scenario.
True, however, the biggest difference is team vs. alone, rather than hardware. Even if your wife goes to the range with you, she probably doesn't practice tactical defense scenarios with you (e.g. move and cover), so you don't even have a team of 2, much less 5 or 11.
Netpackrat wrote:I have posted in the past, if you read the "Armed Citizen" column each month in the NRA magazine, you start to see some patterns. One of those is in a home invasion, the resident is usually busy getting his ass kicked, stabbed, and/or shot during the interval of time it takes him to retrieve the gun that he should have had on him in the first place. The folks that can't get to their gun, or didn't have one, don't make it into the "Armed Citizen" in the magazine.
Absolutely Agree. Neither of my friends ended up in "Armed Citizen" because they couldn't get to their gun. Surprise and disorientation is the order of the day, unless you have 24/7 security, or some good dogs. You're not going to be opening your gunsafe and fumbling for magazines during a home invasion, for sure.
Netpackrat wrote:Whenever somebody asks me why I keep my pistol on, even in my house, I ask if they knew that 100% of home invasions take place in the home? It isn't a "home defense" weapon for me; it's just my carry gun. My ability to stash weapons throughout my home is limited by the fact that I have a toddler running around, so it's the carry gun, and a shotgun that I can get to and he can't, which I can fight (or more accurately, retreat) my way to, if there is a problem that for some reason can't be solved with the pistol.
Agree. Need to match the weapons and planning to the situation. My friends have no kids, so they can have a loaded S&W hidden behind a cookbook in the kitchen, on top of a spare cell phone. They also have a Rem 870 in the pantry and a loaded AR under the bed.

Any visiting small children need to be closely supervised (dogs and guns).
Netpackrat wrote:If you prefer a carbine chambered in a pistol caliber, or an intermediate rifle cartridge, then rock on with your bad self. If I had aspirations of clearing my house, or even going outside my house to take the fight to the enemy, I would certainly arm myself with an AK rather than a standard length shotgun. But although it has a few disadvantages (length, low capacity, slow to reload), for a guy holed up with his family, lying in wait for intruders who have already entered the house, there is no more devastating close range weapon than a properly loaded shotgun.
I wouldn't plan on clearing a house without a properly trained team of at least 2. If you have a toddler, that means your well trained No. 2 is occupied with toddler, so you're not clearing your house until help arrives. That means either dealing with the intruders from your position (hopefully with some cover) with your family behind you, or exiting your home via one of your pre-planned escape routes with your family.

My reason for selecting the rifle vs. shotgun is that even in my "just awakened" and "in panic" state, I'm hoping my practice and the money I've spent on training classes will pay off and I will be able to hit my targets. If the threat isn't neutralized, it should be because of a penetration problem, not a target acquisition problem. A shotgun won't penetrate cover or body armor any better than a handgun.
Netpackrat wrote:As for the double barrel shotgun, I would not make any gun that held only two shots part of my defense plan.
That was the couple. Their plan was one reaches for the pistol and racks the slide. The other reaches for the shotgun and cocks the hammers. They believe having the hammer gun is safer than having a pump shotgun loaded with safety on (dog possibly knocking over gun). They believe the double shotgun can get into operation faster.

That's their plan. It sounds good in theory, but I haven't practiced the drill, so I can't say for sure.

Like I said, there is no right or wrong answer, just what works for you. All I'm saying is work through the scenarios given your situation (kids? great-grandma? dog?), possible support (neighbors? police?), terrain (condo in burbclave? farmhouse? next to national forest?), house layout, exit routes, etc. Most important - practice your scenarios, hopefully with your No. 2.

Many fall into the trap of "X" is going to magically solve all problems, where "X" = Remington 870, M240 or M67.

As you pointed out, we can't choose the time and place of defensive situation.

The best gun to have is the one in your hand, whatever that might be.

The worst gun is no gun.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Re: Rem 870 Masterthread: Which model, accessories, why?

Post by PawPaw »

Not a home defense scenario, nor even a military action, but I may the the only guy here who has walked into a bar-fight carrying a shotgun.

Called to a redneck bar in the middle of a night shift over a disturbance, just about the time my cruiser started crunching the gravel in the parking lot, I realized that the disturbance was a general melee, We carry our shotguns "cruiser-safe", which is magazine full, safety off, trigger pulled. Some folks standing at the door saw me and "made a hole" so I could walk into the door. One step inside the door, I chambered a round and was met by immediate silence. There is nothing like the sound of a pump shotgun to quell aggression. Total silence. After that it was simply a matter of waiting for extra handcuffs and doing the paperwork.

I like a pump shotgun.
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Yogimus
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Re: Rem 870 Masterthread: Which model, accessories, why?

Post by Yogimus »

5.56 penetrates less than 9mm or 00 buck.
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Re: Rem 870 Masterthread: Which model, accessories, why?

Post by Yogimus »

PawPaw wrote:Not a home defense scenario, nor even a military action, but I may the the only guy here who has walked into a bar-fight carrying a shotgun.

Called to a redneck bar in the middle of a night shift over a disturbance, just about the time my cruiser started crunching the gravel in the parking lot, I realized that the disturbance was a general melee, We carry our shotguns "cruiser-safe", which is magazine full, safety off, trigger pulled. Some folks standing at the door saw me and "made a hole" so I could walk into the door. One step inside the door, I chambered a round and was met by immediate silence. There is nothing like the sound of a pump shotgun to quell aggression. Total silence. After that it was simply a matter of waiting for extra handcuffs and doing the paperwork.

I like a pump shotgun.
The collapsible buttstock on an M-4 has the same effect when 40 or so drunk army wankers decide to tear the E-club a new asshole. (Partner behind me with clear orders to shoot the first motherfucker that gets within 5 yards of me)
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Re: Rem 870 Masterthread: Which model, accessories, why?

Post by blackeagle603 »

3 daughters. 7 shotguns.

I wouldn't buy an Express and I wouldn't give one to anyone I love.

Not when old Wingmasters and Police versions can be had with a minimal amount of shopping.


If push came to shove and absolute lowest cost were the issue then ( would _always_ buy a cheapest Mossy 500 before I dropped even a dime on an Express. In fact I have 3 Mossy 500's (and 6 barrels) for just that reason.


2 3/4" or 3" is fine with me but I can't remember the last decade I shot a 3" round.

fwiw, Just recently added this mint old 18" 870 to the family this month... Looks like the old boy bought it, oiled it and the just put in the safe for posterity. Shopping for a 28" remchoke barrel to complete it.
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Re: Rem 870 Masterthread: Which model, accessories, why?

Post by Yogimus »

My shotty is a rem 870 wing master, 18 inch barrel, extended tube, and collapsible stock with a pistolgrip. (rubber forend) I have a very short "pull" that I am comfortable with, and the stock helps with that. I really should put a light on it, but such is life. My bedside cuddleguns are my .357 revolver and my AR-15 (m4 style) The shotty is relegated to a backup role.

A red-dot on the M4 makes it infinitely better (FOR ME) for rapid engagement at night.
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D5CAV
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Re: Rem 870 Masterthread: Which model, accessories, why?

Post by D5CAV »

blackeagle603 wrote:2 3/4" or 3" is fine with me but I can't remember the last decade I shot a 3" round.
That tells me you haven't hunted waterfowl in a few decades.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Re: Rem 870 Masterthread: Which model, accessories, why?

Post by blackeagle603 »

Yeah, come to think of it last 3" was some steel in a 20ga I no longer have on an Imperial Valley duck hunt about 6-7 years ago.
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"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic;" Justice Story
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