Can someone explain unions to me?

[MiddleAgedKen]

when one cant do that, why should they get anything? let alone even keep a job?

In the job I described, no one can stand out.

In any case, where it's a voluntary agreement between management and workers that the workers will bargain collectively, whose business is it of anyone else's? In some cases, with responsible, forward-looking leadership in the union, collective bargaining can offer management fewer headaches than negotiating individually with vast numbers of workers.

Actually, opportunity presenting, the worker should leave a situation such as I described, and the sooner the better. Large-scale organizations of any kind tend to be dehumanizing (some by design); remember Michels' Iron Law of Oligarchy.

Unless, of course, you have a small revolution every twenty years, as a really schmott guy once suggested.

[Aglifter]

As a formalized group, they're pretty worthless -- they're an absolute cancer in a closed-shop. Ideally, they should be told to exist w.o. any form of formal support -- which would drive them to be more like the old guilds of the Renaissance (provide support for members, establish levels, etc -- if being a "master" in a union, actually meant you were reliable, skilled, at least honest -- it would be something worth paying for.)

Line workers will always be interchangeable, it's a nature of that job, and, given a world-wide labor shortage, the jobs which should receive the least protection.

[Scott Free]

...it seems like nothing more than organized extortion to me.

Nope, you get it. Don't make it harder than it has to be.

It all comes down to the contract between the employer and employee. If neither side is forced to deal with the other -- i.e., if the actions of each player is voluntary -- then no one's rights are violated. (Of course, neither or both sides may necessarily be happy, either.) However,

[t]he problem comes when the unions manage to get legislators to write laws that tip the balance in their favor.

In other words, when the government gets involved with its monopoly on the use of force and writing either pro-management OR pro-union legislation, the crucial concept of "voluntary" goes out the window and is replaced with the new concept of "coercion".

Yet another reason why the state and economics should be separate.

[Kommander]

Unions arose because business took severe advantage of workers.

i understand that... but in a nation where we have child labor laws and regulated 40 hour work weeks... the only thing they seem to do now is protect the underachievers and hurt businesses.

You are correct. The unions eventually fell into the same trap that they used to ensare the employers. They got greedy. I have a bit of a story about this.

The summer before I left for college, and the summer after my freshman year, I bagged groceries at a local grocery store in California for minimum wage. I think it was $6.75 an hour. The fall after my second summer there the workers at the chain I worked at and two others went on strike. The reason? The companies needed to reduce their labor costs to be able to compete with Walmart. What they demanded was unpleasant, but not unreasonable.

By the time winter break rolled around the strikers had been stretched kinda thin, so they were only picketing one chain, and it was not the one I worked at. So I went in and got my old job back. Since I was on good terms with the manager I got $17.99 and hour. To bag groceries. And I didn't have to wear the stupid uniform. Unfortunately I only had a month to work, but I made a good chunk of change.

Five months down the line the union agreed to what the chains wanted, and had effectively been broken. The only thing that saved them was Californias pro union laws. There are two lessons to be learned here. The first is that don't strike if a trained monkey can do your job. The company will hire said monkeys to replace you. The second is to not strike over stupid stuff. The public will not support you, your members will get sick of striking fast, and you will loose.

The big winner in all this? Me and Wallmart. Oh and the Wikipedia article on this topic is full of shit so don't bother.

[Dedicated_Dad]

My Maternal ancestors were all mountain-folk, coal miners. My Grandfather was one of a small group very close with John L. Lewis, G-pa organized a number of mines and was hated by the Co. men / Pinkertons with a literal passion. There was a serious price on his head, they burned his house with his wife and 2 tiny kids (both in diapers) inside, and had a big celebration thinking they'd succeeded in killing his family. So did he, and a number of them died before they figured out he was picking them off the edges of the "party" ala Sgt. York.

They then chased him - dogs, the whole bit - on foot, over a couple of mountains and across 2 states - all the way back into the mountains he called home. More of them died on the way along with enough dogs that they couldn't get anyone else to help with dogs. This was a real man, try to imagine being in his shoes, running for your life for weeks, all the way home thinking your wife and kids were dead, only to find them there, waiting for you!

Now...

Why would a man put himself in such a situation?

Those miners, at that time, were mostly indentured servants. They'd promised to pay for their passage from Ireland or Scotland to the US by working in the mines. When they got here, they were paid in company "scrip" which could only be spent at the Company store, where they had to pay company PRICES. See "Truck System" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truck_system)

and "Debt Bondage" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage)

This is where the old "16 tons" song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Joo90ZWrUkU) came from:

"

You load 16 tons (of coal) and whaddya get?
Another day older, and deeper in debt.
St. Peter don't you call me, I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

..."

They had to live in a Company house, on company land and pay company rent. The working conditions were horrendous, most died within 5 years. If Boss-man was feeling generous, he'd give the dead man's family a week to get out of the house.

These men had no options. They'd promised to work in this system until they'd paid their debt, but they were caught in a racket that would work them literally to death then put their kids on the street.

If they objected, they got beaten, possibly to death, or they had an "accident" in the mine. They quickly learned to just shut up and work, otherwise their wife and kids would be homeless in appalachia... Just think, for a minute... This was worse in some ways than black slavery.

The only power they had was to band together - they could not beat, much less kill them all.

This was in many ways no different to our Founding Fathers standing up to ol' George, or Gen. Lee and the boys resisting in The War of Northern Aggression (that oughta get 'em going... ), though they had even MORE just cause IMHO...

That is what unions started out to be, and I could not be more proud if Grandpa were old John L. HIMSELF instead of just working for and naming his son (my uncle) after him. My Grandpa helped put an end to a system that was in many ways more abhorrent than slavery - at least slave masters had SOME incentive to keep their slaves alive, while the mining companies didn't care - toss him in a hole, and empty the house so we can move someone else in.

That's what unions WERE. That's why they came to exist. It was necessary.

What they ARE now is in fact no better than you said - organized extortion. I've ranted before about the disgusting things I saw the UAW pull when I worked in a GM plant for 3.5 years. I have no pity at all, and have objected to any help of any kind to the auto industry unless voiding of all UAW contracts is part of the solution. Sorry if this bothers anyone here - I am 100% sure that if any of OUR members who are also UAW members, are not the problem.

Therefore, when I say

F*** the UAW

Please know that I am not talking to or about YOU.

I'm talking about the thieves who holler "I have an alcohol problem" when they get caught, and get a 30-day paid vacation and then come back to work with no penalty, only to steal again. I personally witnessed no less than 3 people pull this no less than 3 times each in the 3.5 years I was there. No repercussions because the UAW protected them.

I'm talking about the P.O.S. that fills up the hard-drives on the weld-controller PCs with kiddie porn - not teen girls but frigging toddlers being raped. I'm talking about the Union leadership who spread the word and threaten a strike to prevent us hiding a web-cam to catch the sick f**ker. No repercussions No repercussions because the UAW protected them.

I'm talking about the P.O.S. that deliberately knocks wireless antennae off the rafters with a forklift, and the ones that turn the 15-minute job of replacing it into an all-day double-time-pay ordeal for literally 6 people.

I'm talking about the guys who tape a can with bolts in it inside the fender of cars, where it can only be found when the car is dismantled, with "how long did it take you to find THIS???" written on the tape, just to cause customer sat problems when you're angry with plant management. They finally caught this guy too. He had "an alcohol problem. No repercussions because the UAW protected him.

I'm talking about the guys who deliberately work to put the wrong color trim on a car, deliberately defeating the million-dollar system designed to prevent such mistakes, so their buds can get overtime work fixing the "mistakes." We hid a web-cam and proved it was deliberate - watch the guy deliberately step on the RIGHT pressure mat, then stretch waaaaaaay over to grab the wrong part from the right bin. No repercussions because the UAW protected them. We OTOH got ripped out when the union filed a grievance - getting caught red-handed by a web-cam apparently violated their "rights."

I'm talking about the guys who demand a UAW electrician be the only one that can unplug a network cable from a broken PC, or use a screwdriver to open the case, then keep a $2k/day consultant standing around for an hour waiting for you to come and do it. The guys who make it so expensive to operate that we replace 3,000 perfectly good PCs with new ones just so we can open them without tools, and make that a COST SAVING measure.

All of you rotten f**kers who screw the company because you can, then laugh about it, ultimately running the plant into the ground, then have the rest threaten to strike nationwide to save you from losing your job due to your own malfeasance. All you rotten b@$+ards making $50 an hour for a minimum-wage job, with your boat, your harley, and your big house who still have the nerve to extort your employer to protect the rotten wastes of skin I described above.

F*** the UAW, and if you don't agree that all those described above deserve to be fired, if not tarred and feathered (or shot, in the case of the kiddie-perv) then F**k you too.

My Grandfather gave his life, and took more than a dozen others, to protect good men from an evil bunch, but you have turned his proud history into nothing more than an organized crime protection scheme. F**k you.

Don't ask me how I REALLY feel...

These guys easily double the price of cars, and are the biggest reason American quality is not better than anywhere else. They also double the cost of foreign cars, since they artificially increase the market price - if a GM car cost what it SHOULD, everyone else's prices would also have to come down to stay competitive.

I agree that Mgt. should also have stood up a long time ago, but the UAW raped GM the same way the Libs are raping us - one little bit at a time and the frog is boiling before he realizes how hot it is getting.

I don't mind propping up our auto industry, but voiding all contracts, forcing renegotiation, and keeping the same sort of crap from coming back needs to be part of any bailout plan...

DD

[mekender]

DD,

i am glad to know that i am not the only one that sees and hears about these things and thinks that way...


you ever make it down to NC, i owe ya a beer

[Termite]

I think D.D. pretty much covered it................

The union's time has come and gone.

[SeekHer]

D.D.---Bravo, my good man!...

We needed unions in the early days of the 20th century but they became redundant after the labour laws were applied so they aren’t needed to the same degree today and not necessarily disbanding them, curtailing their power and influence…

The union bosses all scream “Strike” and the worker goes off the line but the bosses still get their $100+K per year while the worker gets diddly squat. Like you said, they got greedy and destroyed the US & Canada to the point where we couldn’t compete against foreign makers unless there were quota or subsidies forced unto the other side to prevent it…Look at the gas war of the 1970s when they embargoed Japanese gas efficient cars from the USA because it might hurt the auto industry and then they do squat to better the cars so last year you’re paying $4 a gallon for gas that the oil companies are making millions on and the car industry is down the tubes because management says they can't retool quick enough so they need 15 years to get a car that gets >40 MPG, so the bosses aren't lily white either in this fiasco…

The fuckers brought it upon themselves…

Let all of them go under and therefore the unions aren't involved anymore, rehire the workers at greatly reduced wages and an internal union for grievances and make a fuel efficient line of cars and it will benefit everyone...

Fuck the UAW…

How does a stock & bond trader, bank, mortgage company go under, and get bailed out, when they give $200 million dollars to management as a bonus, (year end performance) and the company fails--make the assholes give the money back, to the investors!

Let them be foisted by their own petard!

[SoupOrMan]

I can say that some unions are definitely better than others. I can't go into any real detail, though, since unionization is currently the Thing That Shall Not Be Spoken About at our agency. We're one of the few non-union agencies in the state, and we're that way due to being politically neutral. And yes, we take that seriously. Since unions can give directly from their coffers to state and local candidates (most unions have a separate political fund, but it's unnecessary for our state) in Illinois, we'd be considered to support whoever gets union money. Hardly a good thing for an agency who is supposed to be a defender of fair voting practices. Still, they're trying.

[Steamforger]

DD,
Truly well put. F@#k those self-serving bastards.

I've had one UAW job in my lifetime (parking lot revenue collector in Lansing). I put myself in a position where the UAW rep was going to eventually make it to me to deliver his speech. That speech started with "This program is wrong, and you should take your name off that list" and ended with "Your union borthers and sisters will retliate against you if you don't."

My supervisor was decidedly non-union as well. I had a talk with her, and in no uncertain terms, let her know any threats or retaliation would be met head on, and in very disagreeable ways. I also let her know that if any union reps showed up at my residence, they and their bags could be picked up at the local hospital.

The UAW guy never talked to me again, about that or anything else.

F@%k, I hate a union.