The Final Countdown (movie)

[skb12172]

I saw this with my dad when I was a kid. I just watched it again, last night, on Netflix.

Interesting premise. Kind of like the 1632 series on steroids.

1) What if they had not run into the second storm. Would one 1980 Nuke Carrier carry enough ordinance to destroy a fleet the size of the Japanese? I'm not talking about quality of firepower, but quantity. That was a whole lot of planes and ships. Would they have run out of boolits and missuls?

2) What would be the ramifications on the timeline of the next 40 years, assuming they destroyed the invading fleet and reported to Pearl Harbor for orders?

3) It also seems that technological advances gain momentum during certain periods of time, like rapids in a river, then run calmer during other times. Case in point: A 1980 Nuke Carrier in 1941 instantly rules the world. A 2013 Nuke Carrier in 1974? Not so much, right? I mean, the Tomcat in original form, was produced in 1973. To me, it seems it's not only the length of time between technologies, but WHICH eras we are discussing.

Fire Away!

[randy]

I remember seeing an interview with one of the Navy technical adivsors at the time in which he stated that the Nimitz, using conventional armaments, would be able to render the Hawaiian strike fleet combat ineffective (Mission Kill) within 30 seconds to a minute and a couple of hours to track down and sink the entire fleet (K-Kill).

As was shown at Midway, it didn't take a lot of hits to disable or even destroy a Japanese carrier of the day. Without carriers, any launched aircraft are just drones waiting to splash, either through being shot down or running out of fuel.

Disrupting the strike force once airborne would not have required shooting down every aircraft. Having the lead aircraft start blowing up with no apparent cause (AA missiles) followed up by high speed gun passes on any remaining formations (jet wash alone would be dangerous) and you probably no longer have a combat effective force. Certainly not one able to inflict the amount of concentrated damage in a short period of time as happened in the real world.

And it's probable that the air defenses of Pearl, Hickam, Wheeler etc would have been much more effective given the time and warning to get up and disperse to deal with any leakers.

Even without the shooters, a modern carrier would be an immense advantage in the field of Command and Control. I'm sure BE can testify how much more effective the rest of the US fleet would be given over watch from the E-2s, recon from the TARP birds, etc. and let the "downtimers" provide the actual shooters.

And then there's the Intel section, to whom the Japanese Purple and other codes are historical training exercises...

Dumb bombs that could be carried by the A-6 and A-7 boys would easily be within the manufacturing capabilities of the day, and given the electronics on especially the A-6, could be delivered much more precisely and accurately than any other platform of the time.

Switching coasts, I somehow think the Kreigsmarine would not be celebrating a second "Happy Time" with the combination of ASW birds and knowledge of convoy doctrine without earning it the hard way, assuming Germany declared war without a successful Pearl Harbor strike.

[Jericho941]

Switching coasts, I somehow think the Kreigsmarine would not be celebrating a second "Happy Time" with the combination of ASW birds and knowledge of convoy doctrine without earning it the hard way, assuming Germany declared war without a successful Pearl Harbor strike.

Interesting consequences if they didn't. "USS Nimitz saves Pearl Harbor, delivers Europe to Stalin."

[randy]

Oh, and one of my favorite non-flying scenes in the movie:
[spoiler]When the downed Japanese pilot steps off the helicopter onto the deck of the Nimitz and looks around at the operations going on, the look on his face conveys the thoughts of "Wait a minute, we're attacking these guys!?!? Yamamoto's a fucking idiot!"[/spoiler]

[skb12172]

I remember seeing an interview with one of the Navy technical adivsors at the time in which he stated that the Nimitz, using conventional armaments, would be able to render the Hawaiian strike fleet combat ineffective (Mission Kill) within 30 seconds to a minute and a couple of hours to track down and sink the entire fleet (K-Kill).

As was shown at Midway, it didn't take a lot of hits to disable or even destroy a Japanese carrier of the day. Without carriers, any launched aircraft are just drones waiting to splash, either through being shot down or running out of fuel.

Disrupting the strike force once airborne would not have required shooting down every aircraft. Having the lead aircraft start blowing up with no apparent cause (AA missiles) followed up by high speed gun passes on any remaining formations (jet wash alone would be dangerous) and you probably no longer have a combat effective force. Certainly not one able to inflict the amount of concentrated damage in a short period of time as happened in the real world.

And it's probable that the air defenses of Pearl, Hickam, Wheeler etc would have been much more effective given the time and warning to get up and disperse to deal with any leakers.

Even without the shooters, a modern carrier would be an immense advantage in the field of Command and Control. I'm sure BE can testify how much more effective the rest of the US fleet would be given over watch from the E-2s, recon from the TARP birds, etc. and let the "downtimers" provide the actual shooters.

And then there's the Intel section, to whom the Japanese Purple and other codes are historical training exercises…

Dumb bombs that could be carried by the A-6 and A-7 boys would easily be within the manufacturing capabilities of the day, and given the electronics on especially the A-6, could be delivered much more precisely and accurately than any other platform of the time.

Switching coasts, I somehow think the Kreigsmarine would not be celebrating a second "Happy Time" with the combination of ASW birds and knowledge of convoy doctrine without earning it the hard way, assuming Germany declared war without a successful Pearl Harbor strike.

Yeah, but that's after coordinating with the American "downtimes." I'm talking about if the storm hadn't hit them a second time and they simply had their advance strike force, with Pearl knowing nothing about it. You've answered that too, though. Combat ineffective within a minute, cease to exist within two hours, though that would probably not have been necessary.

Someone should write a reimagined version or a sequel.

Interesting side note from one of the reviews: We know the former CAG's company designed most of the Nimitz, based upon his uptime knowledge after being stranded back in 1941 and having to live the rest of his life from that point forward. Is it possible that his Military/Industrial Complex Sooper Company, using top secret, advanced technology, actually CREATED the storm to send the Nimitz back and fulfill the events required to send him back in the first place?

[HTRN]

Isn't this the concept behind a couple of SciFi book series, notably the destroyermen and axis of time

[Aesop]

Nimitz wipes out IJN strike fleet en passant, continues unassisted towards Japan, skips straight to Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and all the alternate targets from 1945 by Day Four. Japan thinks the wrath of the gods has fallen from the sky with 8 major cities in flames and near completely destroyed after the unexplained disappearance of its strongest fleet, and subsequent radio silence.

Entire Japanese war-opening strategy fails, none of the targeted locations falls, Japan is laid bare to the world, gets eaten alive by China in the mad rush to the sea. Their entire military would look like they were starring in a Godzilla movie.

And yes, an '80s nuke carrier is that much of a game changer.
When one put to see circa 1980, it was, effectively, the sixth-strongest military power in the world. In 1941 it would be in the top three, if not top dog.

Upon receipt of the message from CINCPAC to "execute unrestricted warfare on the land and naval forces of Japan", the carrier planning staff would have carte blanche to do whatever wild plans they chose. It would have been an epically short war.

The subsequent two-week sail across the Indian Ocean, around the horn, and up to Europe would have given time to warn the Germans they'd best return to the borders status quo ante forthwith, with apologies and reparations, or start producing body bags by the million.

The biggest complication would have been the increase in intelligence requirements with the total lack (due to its nonexistence) of satellite weather and reconnaissance assets and updates. They'd essentially have to form an ad hoc CIA/DIA and gather intel from historical data and period radio intercepts, and be navigating and doing mission planning by dead reckoning and INS.

Long-term, Pax Americana would have dawned 50 years earlier, and the US would have been vastly more technologically advanced than the rest of the world from 1942 onwards, and in perpetuity.

What that would have done to the national psyche is hard to say, but we would have been, in 1942, the equivalent of the alien overlords of every science fiction movie ever made.

And we'd have had our flying cars and jetpacks by the time I graduated high school. Dammit!

[Steamforger]

Destroyermen is a series about two Fletcher class destroyers and one very nasty Japanese heavy cruiser going back to a pre-gunpowder, sailing era. Protagonists are evolved lemurs (Lemurians) and antagonists are evolved, though not too bright, lizards (Grick.) It is notable that not only did they experience a shift in time, but also worlds. The new world is geographically very similar to the one they came from. Their maps mostly match up with the new stuff they're seeing and the names are close enough together that they can kind of communicate about locations. This allows them to take advantage of known deposits of oil, copper, etc.

Basically, super advanced war machines performing as force multipliers for a indigenous people while being zerged by lizards from the sea. It's entertaining enough and an easy read.

[blackeagle603]

Nimitz vs the Pearl Harbor strike group... Yeah, Yamamoto would have been looking for a bit of floating wreckage to cling to before he even realized the fight was on (and over).

Even in the era this movie was made with our then current over the horizon standoff shipkiller missiles capability. /shudder/
Air/Air match up of props vs Tomcats would never have come to pass. All those Zeros and Zekes would have gone to the bottom still in their tie downs.

The Alpha strike package of A-6's and A-7's would have been flown as SAR for survivors and to scuttle the remaining hulls that had burned to the water line but had not yet sunk.

[Steamforger]

I had an EQ2 Troll named Ashnak for about 6 years.