Looking for a gun case

[drice]

I lock it with master padlocks. I get a 6-pack keyed the same at the hardware store. The case has two hasps for padlocks. Each case gets two padlocks. I just hand one key to the TSA-person.

This is the same locking provision as the Storm and Pelican cases. I haven't used the Storm and I discussed my issues with the Pelican on a number of threads.

Thanks D5. I'll get a T2 on order today. It seems big enough to carry anything I might want to bring along.

[Netpackrat]

I lock it with master padlocks. I get a 6-pack keyed the same at the hardware store. The case has two hasps for padlocks. Each case gets two padlocks. I just hand one key to the TSA-person.

(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage or in baggage carried in an inaccessible cargo hold under §1562.23 of this chapter:

(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—

(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;

(ii) The firearm is unloaded;

(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and

(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.

[D5CAV]

I lock it with master padlocks. I get a 6-pack keyed the same at the hardware store. The case has two hasps for padlocks. Each case gets two padlocks. I just hand one key to the TSA-person.

(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage or in baggage carried in an inaccessible cargo hold under §1562.23 of this chapter:

(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—

(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;

(ii) The firearm is unloaded;

(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and

(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.

Right after 9/11, the newly formed TSA had their own set of rules -- all bags needed to be unlocked -- that conflicted with FAA regulations (see above). This caused a huge amount of confusion at airports -- locked before inspection, unlocked before inspection, passenger locks case after inspection, TSA agent locks case, etc., etc.

The NRA worked out a compromise with the FAA and TSA so that there are uniform rules at US airports.
1. The case has to be locked after inserting the declaration form on check-in.
2. The locked case is taken to TSA for screening, where it is x-rayed (if that equipment if available) and/or opened & physically inspected.
3. If they choose to open & physically inspect the case, the TSA person will ask you for the key or combination since it is a non-TSA lock, and "only the passenger retains the key or combination".
4. Unless there is a problem, the TSA-person will re-lock the case and give you back the key before clearing the case through to check-in.

You are required to stay in the area during the inspection, so presumably, you still "retain the key or combination". The key is handed back to you before the bag goes onto the conveyor and before they release you to get on your flight.

Do I have more than one copy of the key? Sure I do. Spare key, spare gun, spare mag, spare ammo, spare tire -- I'm sure you see a common thread.

[mekender]

it is a federal law that only you retain the key... the TSA taking the key from your hand would violate that law..

likewise it would be impossible to retain the combination if you gave it to the TSA, so only you can legally know it.

[D5CAV]

it is a federal law that only you retain the key... the TSA taking the key from your hand would violate that law..

likewise it would be impossible to retain the combination if you gave it to the TSA, so only you can legally know it.

Please point that out to the TSA people next time you check in a firearm. They are known to have a great sense of humor. Please let me know which airport and what time you will be doing this, so I can be there with a video camera!

On a similar note, we have a Constitutional Amendment which states "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Be sure to point that out to the ATF people when they ask to see your 'paperwork' for that full-auto 1921 Thompson you found in Grandpa's attic.

The fact of the matter is, we have a whole host of regulations that violate not only laws, but the Constitution. As bad as some laws are, the regulatory agencies are worse -- and some congressional legislation effectively gives bureacracies like the ATF and TSA a blank check in essentially drafting new law.

At least Wilson was 'honest' enough to push through a Consitutional amendment before he implemented an obviously unconstitutional income tax. FDR couldn't be bothered by those little details. I don't believe Obama will be bothered by such niceties, either.

The big question is, what is your 'line in the sand'? Is it handing over your key to the TSA person when you check in a firearm? Is it submitting to a 'car inspection' on crossing state lines? Is it submitting to a pat-down search before you get on the LIRR for your commute home? Is it submitting to a random road block and car search on your way to the grocery store?

As the song says "the times are a-changing".

[Netpackrat]

it is a federal law that only you retain the key... the TSA taking the key from your hand would violate that law..

likewise it would be impossible to retain the combination if you gave it to the TSA, so only you can legally know it.

Please point that out to the TSA people next time you check in a firearm. They are known to have a great sense of humor. Please let me know which airport and what time you will be doing this, so I can be there with a video camera!

Actually, and my brother may chime in on this, but he refused to just hand over his key to the TSA, and insisted on being present when the case was open for inspection. They eventually relented, and let him and his guns on the airplane, without giving up his key. The TSA knows the rules, and if you insist that they be followed, from what I have heard, they will. If you do not, and just give them your key to take into the back room without you being present, not only are you allowing them an opportunity to steal your firearms, you are also participating in the violation of the regs.

The problem with the cases that use the "TSA" locks, is that there is no way to follow the regulation, since probably any TSA agent can open up your case anytime they have an opportunity to do so. And you know that there have to be a lot of baggage handlers, etc. who have managed to get their hands on those keys. I would be shocked if the TSA could account for all of those keys.

As for your other rant about the second amendment, constitution, yadda yadda whatever, that's just a strawman. What we are talking about is ensuring that the TSA follows their own fricking rules.

[D5CAV]

As for your other rant about the second amendment, constitution, yadda yadda whatever, that's just a strawman. What we are talking about is ensuring that the TSA follows their own fricking rules.

Ummm - No. What you are talking about is following the FAA rules. What I referenced are the TSA rules.

The TSA rules are the rules the TSA agent will have in their possession, so you will have the highest probability of success in getting TSA people to follow their own rules (not always the case, as many people have experienced).

Here's the TSA rules: http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/ ... _1666.shtm

"We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain present during screening to take the key back after the container is cleared. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft. "

So here's the deal -- If you refuse to hand over the key or combination and the TSA agent wants to be an a###### (never happens, right?), he takes a pair of bolt cutters and cuts off the lock. Then he comes back to you after the inspection and asks for another lock to put on the case before it goes on the airplane (per FAA rules).

It is true that there are many laws that are in conflict -- see the recent Treasury department ruling that clearly violates US tax law (perhaps another 'strawman') -- and this is another example where a strict reading of one bureaucracy's rules (FAA) is in conflict with another bureaucracy's rules (TSA).

By the way, kudos to your brother on getting the TSA to follow the FAA rules! It always warms my heart when I see someone stand up to 'Big Brother'. I wish I was there to see it -- it would have made my day!

Good luck & safe travels!

[SeekHer]

I can not begin to think of the number of times I've said this but your "Homestead Act" Homeland Security and all related alphabet organizations that it encompasses should go the way of the BATF(U)E as they are corrupt, ineffective and have done diddly squat for the safety of the USA (or the world for that matter) other then hassling old people and imposing stupid laws that they abuse and act like narcissistic, megalomaniacs if you dare speak back to them...

Support JPFO--Jews For The Preservation Of Firearms Ownership's program GIVE THE BATF THE BOOT

Down with the Damn TSA

[Netpackrat]

Here's the TSA rules: http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/ ... _1666.shtm

"We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain present during screening to take the key back after the container is cleared. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft. "

Those aren't the regulations, those are just some guidelines that the TSA publishes, which have no regulatory weight whatsoever. If you do like they say, and provide the key to the TSA and are not present when they have both the key and access to your case, you are breaking the law (and so, of course, are they).

So here's the deal -- If you refuse to hand over the key or combination and the TSA agent wants to be an a###### (never happens, right?), he takes a pair of bolt cutters and cuts off the lock. Then he comes back to you after the inspection and asks for another lock to put on the case before it goes on the airplane (per FAA rules).

As long as you are polite about it and explain that you are only trying to follow the law, the worst thing that should happen is they just won't let you on the airplane. Lose your cool, and all bets are off.

It is true that there are many laws that are in conflict -- see the recent Treasury department ruling that clearly violates US tax law (perhaps another 'strawman') -- and this is another example where a strict reading of one bureaucracy's rules (FAA) is in conflict with another bureaucracy's rules (TSA).

The difference in this case, is that the FAA's regulations ARE the TSA's rules, since they are part of title 49 of the code of federal regulations, which are the regulations that cover security of the air transportation system. There are no other regulations covering this area. The document you linked to is an attempt by the TSA to explain those regulations to passengers, and in this instance, they got it wrong. They can also say that you must only wear a blue shirt on the airplane, but that doesn't make it so.

The regs themselves are quite clear, and the TSA personnel (at least the ones who inspect weapons in checked baggage) are trained to know them, which is why he was able to back them down, and get them to follow the law. Again, if you lose your cool and cross the line from insistent to argumentative, then you'll violate another part of the regs and will be their bitch from that point on. You also need to be prepared to walk away from the flight without boarding. You'll eventually prevail, but maybe not right then.

[mekender]

As for your other rant about the second amendment, constitution, yadda yadda whatever, that's just a strawman. What we are talking about is ensuring that the TSA follows their own fricking rules.

Ummm - No. What you are talking about is following the FAA rules. What I referenced are the TSA rules.

The TSA rules are the rules the TSA agent will have in their possession, so you will have the highest probability of success in getting TSA people to follow their own rules (not always the case, as many people have experienced).

Here's the TSA rules: http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/ ... _1666.shtm

"We recommend that you provide the key or combination to the security officer if he or she needs to open the container. You should remain present during screening to take the key back after the container is cleared. If you are not present and the security officer must open the container, we or the airline will make a reasonable attempt to contact you. If we can't contact you, the container will not be placed on the plane. Federal regulations prohibit unlocked gun cases (or cases with broken locks) on aircraft. "

So here's the deal -- If you refuse to hand over the key or combination and the TSA agent wants to be an a###### (never happens, right?), he takes a pair of bolt cutters and cuts off the lock. Then he comes back to you after the inspection and asks for another lock to put on the case before it goes on the airplane (per FAA rules).

It is true that there are many laws that are in conflict -- see the recent Treasury department ruling that clearly violates US tax law (perhaps another 'strawman') -- and this is another example where a strict reading of one bureaucracy's rules (FAA) is in conflict with another bureaucracy's rules (TSA).

By the way, kudos to your brother on getting the TSA to follow the FAA rules! It always warms my heart when I see someone stand up to 'Big Brother'. I wish I was there to see it -- it would have made my day!

Good luck & safe travels!

the TSA rules are not the federal laws...

go look up 14CFR108.11, 49CFR1540.111, 49CFR1544.203 and 18USC922.

It is a CRIME to provide anyone other than yourself with the key or combination to your luggage that contains a firearm.

Sec. 1540.111 Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.
.
.
(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for
transport in checked baggage:
(1) Any loaded firearm(s).
(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless--
(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally
or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a
firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;
(ii) The firearm is unloaded;
(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and
(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the
passenger retains the key or combination.
(3) Any unauthorized explosive or incendiary.
(d) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of
ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm.
Title 49 CFR part 175 provides additional requirements governing
carriage of ammunition on aircraft.