Home defense in non-permissive environments...

[308Mike]

My 120 lbs dobie (named "Killer") was a GREAT dog! What he hated more than anything else in the word was our Siamese cat, which would run out the garage door when it was opened first thing in the morning when my dad left for work. Since he was my dog, he slept in my bedroom (usually on my bed and frequently between me and wall and when he stretched his legs out, he could push me out of bed). When that garage door opened, he'd hop out of bed and run to the window and start barking at our cat - and my bedroom window was only a few feet from my head. So my parents started using the garage door as their wake alarm for me in the morning. Nothing like having a large dog, with a VERY DEEP chest barking as loud as possible a few feet from your head to wake you up in the morning!!

But the thing with Killer was that he was in training for a local police department when he got into a fight with another dog being trained and wound up biting the trainer's hand (who had foolishly tried to separate the dogs herself WITHOUT PROTECTION), and her hand was busted up pretty good. The PD told her she couldn't have both dogs being trained and had to get rid of one of them, so I was selected as the new owner (her son was a Marine, and I had started training for boot camp on the delayed-entry program).

Killer was an interesting dog in that he would bark his head off when you breached the property line and would only loudly growl if and when you reached the front door. If you got inside the house and one of us weren't there to say it was okay, he would let you in, but wouldn't let you leave. He would get between the person and the door, growl and bare his 2" teeth (which we called his "smile"), and simply would NOT let you leave, no matter what door or window you wanted to try. If you tried to go past him while he was growling, he'd grab your clothes, sometimes nipping you in the process. If you reached for something he didn't like, he'd wrap his teeth around the limb until you let go of whatever you were trying to do.

Before I got him, he had cornered one burglary suspect in the owner's residence and he had some teeth scrapes on a couple of limbs (with no broken skin) and the perp has shiite his pants while waiting, with "Killer" sitting on the floor in front of him (staring and low-growling at him) while he was cowering in the corner. When the home owners came home and the perp heard them come inside, he was FULL of relief 'cause he thought the dog might kill him. He was yelling for them to come and call the dog off and just call the police so he could get out of there.

I had seen Killer do something similar when we had friends who just walked into the house while we were home (we had told them to just come on in) and Killer greeted them at the door. When they moved through the house to the back doors by the pool, Killer wasn't going to let them out until we told him it was okay.

I'll have to see if I can dig up any old photos of my awesome Dobie, Killer - the name on his papers was: "Killer Dawg" (purebred Doberman Pinscher). We saw the name but she wouldn't give us the papers 'cause part of the agreement for me getting him for free was that we wouldn't breed him. Even so, he was a GREAT dog and protected my mom when she took him downtown to her jewelry store. People would see them coming down the street and would CROSS THE STREET rather than walk by the little white-haired lady walking a HUGE Doberman wearing a spiked collar!! Desired effect achieved!!!

I'll see if I have some easily post-able photos of my great dog.

[Aglifter]

But like all dogs they will eat fucking anything and will cheerfully scoff a piece of meat chucked over the fence which has been poisoned.

A) Dogs can be trained to only eat on command. Its actually fairly important, if you intend to be serious about a dog being part of your home defense, aside from just waking you upon intrusion.

B) This is why, at least in the rural South/TX, its still common for someone to ask permission to give you dog a treat, etc.

The other thing, which is a bit risky, is to have a fence which a dog is trained not to cross, not one which is impossible for it to cross - tends to dissuade people from coming near the dog.

Our dogs freely roamed our old farms/ranches. If you could see them, they could get to you, and tossing meat shouldn't distract a dog which has already decided it doesn't like you/you don't belong.

Now, the major liability is that crazies "can" get by most dogs. If you act like you belong, and "believe" you are doing a good thing, and actually don't produce any signs of nervousness or fear, a dog may ignore you. Depends on how well the dog has been trained/inherent abilities in the dog. The key is to train them that deviations are the problem, not just people acting "sketchy".

The mastiff understood people, not emotional states, and ignored the attitudes people had. You didn't break routines, unless my parents gave you permission, in front of that dog, in a fashion the dog understood. (She was remarkable, BTW.)

The Rhodesians... I don't know... No one ever really tried them. That, and they didn't really warn. The mastiff would come up, and growl - not even too much of that. The Rhodesians only ever really lost it once, and they were trying to break down a door - lunging right at throat level, but not barking.

[Yogimus]

We are confusing "home defense" with "Burglar repellent"

[308Mike]

We are confusing "home defense" with "Burglar repellent"

My dog was a burglar repellant until you crossed the threshold of his protection zone, then you became my dog's CAPTIVE (until such time as one of his owners came around to tell him it was alright, otherwise he'd guard his "prisoner").

[HTRN]

"professional Burglars" don't bother to find out. They move on.

Yup. There are so many houses with easy pickings, that anything that might deter them makes them go "fuggit" unless they know of something particularly valuable is definitely in the house. One of the things I found interesting watching a 20/20 special on burglary is that of the things that don't deter them is alarm systems. It just limits how long they had in the house. A good burglar can get in, check the relevant areas in the house, and be gone in under a minute. Typical response time from an Alarm company? 4-5 minutes. They also rarely go in through the front door(though they typically leave that way.

The places they check are the master bedroom(looking for jewelry boxes on bureaus), the Master closet(people stick guns in closets), the medicine cabinet of the master bath(drugs). On the way out they'll sweep up any valuable portable electronics(laptops, Ipods, Smartphones, etc).

[workinwifdakids]

The recent comments in this thread reminded me of my theory (stated here before) that no place is secure. All your'e doing is costing a potential intruder time and noise. If someone were intent on getting into your home specifically, they'd cap Fido with a silenced .22 caliber pistol with subsonic rounds. Does that mean we shouldn't acquire and highly train a dog? Certainly not. It does mean that we have to approach this with the right mindset.

As I've said before, the first thing I do when I move into a new house is buy PVC, cut it to length, and toss it into the tracks of all my windows and sliding glass doors. They can absolutely get in. All they have to do is heave a rock through the glass. But I've forced them to make noise, something 99.9% of intruders don't want.

[HTRN]

As I've said before, the first thing I do when I move into a new house is buy PVC, cut it to length, and toss it into the tracks of all my windows and sliding glass doors. They can absolutely get in. All they have to do is heave a rock through the glass. But I've forced them to make noise, something 99.9% of intruders don't want.

Make it tougher - put in security film.

[Termite]

Our mini-Pin only weighs 18 lbs, so any burglur could easily play "penalty kick" with her. But that's not what she's for.
She is a four-footed alarm system; her job is to wake up me or Mrs Termite.

[308Mike]

As I've said before, the first thing I do when I move into a new house is buy PVC, cut it to length, and toss it into the tracks of all my windows and sliding glass doors. They can absolutely get in. All they have to do is heave a rock through the glass. But I've forced them to make noise, something 99.9% of intruders don't want.

Make it tougher - put in security film.

YUP - the PVC works well until someone comes along who knows how to quickly & quietly get past them. A security film will make punching the hole through the glass (to lever up the PVC out of the track) MUCH more difficult. Using a glass-cutter on something with security film makes it much less attractive, and the thief will probably just move on instead of dealing with any other possible obstacles to achieving his goal (unless the house was SPECIFICALLY targeted).

If you want another tip for the PVC route; use two pieces, one inside the other (the outside piece SLIGHTLY shorter than the inside piece), so the outside piece spins if someone tries to lever it out if they can't get underneath it. Other than using two pieces of PVC, you might be able to get by with using a piece of 1/2" rebar for the inside rod with the PVC spinning outside.

YMMV

[Termite]

The whole point of barking dogs, security film for glass, etc, is not to make your house burglarproof, but simply tougher than another one down the street.
Kinda like you don't have to outrun the charging grizzly, you just have to outrun the other guy walking with you.....