Will probably need a new truck sooner rather than later...

[g-man]

Oh, and if your left knee can handle it, the Dodge with the Cummins and a 6-speed manual is pretty stout. The clutch is somewhat on the north side of brutal, but the transmission does shift pretty well without it, at least while not towing.

[JAG2955]

Honestly, the mileage and the programmable nature of diesel engines appeal to me. I'm lucky if I get 17mpg on the highway with my Avalanche. I had a Marine who did the whole computer programming thing on his truck, and told me that he could get 22mpg easy on the highway. You also get the advantage of using waste motor oil in it. Same guy had a filtering set up, and he could mix 30 diesel/70 waste oil and still no issues. I hope it's the same with the newer vehicles.

I don't mind parking out in the boondocks. I do now, since most places seem to have much smaller parking spaces than they used to.

g-man, I grew up driving a 1979 Chevy Custom Deluxe, 3 on the tree. The total clutch movement required was probably around 13 inches, pressing it to the floor and compressing the floor mats. When I took karate, one of the instructors asked me if I drove manual, after feeling my left kick. Yes, why yes I do. Not sure if I want a manual though. I hear a lot about towing, but that's one of my least concerns. I'll never own a big boat, but may own a decent size utility or livestock trailer.

[evan price]

OK, you may need an alternator. Or you have a corroded battery terminal or ground, or a weak battery with a cell pulling down the voltage. At worst it's a $200 problem. AutoZone or one of the other auto stores will do a free diagnosis on your charging system in the parking lot while you watch.

The tranny- it's going into limp mode. Usually it's a sensor problem, and not a big deal. I see GM trucks with over 200,000 on them often. If you've done your periodic maintenance and fluid changes it will last a long time since you've never towed with the truck- as in- trailers, regularly.

If you just want a new truck, fine, get one. Sounds like you want an excuse to make you get one so you don't feel guilty about screwing your budget. Things get old, things wear out, things break. You could rebuild that tranny for well under two months' car payment on a new truck.

A new truck is north of $40 grand for a well-equipped model. That's a house payment to crack a monthly car nut. Am I just a cheapskate to feel that a house payment for a car is crazy??

Okay, my feelings are out, so here's data.

The Duramax Diesel is actually a hell of a motor. The first couple years had problems with the injectors. GM changed the design and now the D-max is pretty bullet proof. I ran them as fleet trucks with the Allison trans and there were zero, no, none, zip, nada, problems with them over the time I was with the company, which was several years and hundreds of thousands of miles. The only problems we ever had was with the GM side of things, and that was usually electrical problems for stupid things like wiper motors and heater/AC controls, things that a car company as old as GM should have had nearly perfect by now.

The Cummins 6BT is a nice motor. Too bad it comes in Dodges. Dodge is the most trucky of the trucks (For good or ill) They have had over the years such a bad rep with friends who have owned Dodges I wouldn't want one. Trannies, rear ends, wheel bearings, and HVAC issues. Rust. Fit & finish problems.

Ford really had a good thing going and they truly screwed it in an outhouse. The original 7.3 Navistar was a T444 motor, just detuned. There's a metric bajillion T444's out there in school busses and trucks and equipment. Not as common as the Cummins 6BT but almost. Then Navistar went for the direct injection and electronic control and the T444E was born (7.3 Powerstroke) which was not a bad motor either. Then the Feds stepped in for emissions. The T365E Navistar (Ford 6.0 Powerstroke) was born. Failure, let me count the ways. 4 head bolts per cylinder, instead of 6 like the earlier motors. Torque to yield bolts, no less. Cylinder heat retention problems and spot heating. Burnt combustion chambers, smoked motors. And the fuel economy was terrible compared to the 7.3 motor. I wouldn't take a 6.0 Powerstroke for nearly any price. On top of that, Ford seems to have progressively weakened the front ends on the Super Duties, and I was never a fan of their auto trannies having seen too many of them smoke out early.

Alright, so that's out of the way.
What do you really want in a vehicle?
Do you want a Diesel because all the cool kids have one? Do you have a need for heavy tow/haul and that's why you want a 3/4 ton or larger truck? Do you have Diesel-powered equipment already and want fuel commonality?

Hey, if you just want one, that's cool, this is the USA and you can have whatever you want.

If it's a SHTF issue, any modern Diesel with electronics is just as dead as a gas-powered rig.

If you're considering SHTF you need a mechanical injection sytem-

pre-1998/Pre-ISB 12-valve Dodge Cummins 6BT 5.9 liter
pre-1994 non-direct-injection Ford 7.3 liter/Navistar T444
pre-1994 GM/Detroit Diesel DB2 6.2 or 6.5 liter.

[evan price]

Honestly, the mileage and the programmable nature of diesel engines appeal to me. I'm lucky if I get 17mpg on the highway with my Avalanche. I had a Marine who did the whole computer programming thing on his truck, and told me that he could get 22mpg easy on the highway. You also get the advantage of using waste motor oil in it. Same guy had a filtering set up, and he could mix 30 diesel/70 waste oil and still no issues. I hope it's the same with the newer vehicles.

OK- Diesels really are not that programmable. The newer electronic direct-injection ones are with a data terminal or a software patch. They can take Class VIII trucks to 400 HP for flat-country cruising, the driver makes a phone call, the company mechanic logs into the truck remotely, and bumps you to 550 hp to go over the Rockies. Neat stuff. Not really applicable for light trucks nowadays- YET.

There's two things you can get with a Diesel- Torque, OR economy. Diesels don't have a throttle. They draw in as much air as they can every stroke. You control power output with fuel. You need more power, you turn up the pump to deliver more fuel. By absolute fact, this consumes more fuel. Anybody I know who bought a Diesel truck thinking it would get them miraculous MPGs was disappointed. Unless they were in a heavy truck like a Class V or Class VI where the gas motors are outclassed by Diesels. At best, for personal transportation, Diesel is roughly the same as gas or only slightly better. Given the higher cost of Diesel, it's a wash.

Using WLO- Waste Lube Oil- as motor fuel. Well, you "can" do it, but I don't recommend it for the average person. Here's why:

Waste oil has contaminates in it. This ranges from the minute particles of bearing and metal worn away inside the motor, to particles of carbon and silica from combustion and dirt that got past the filters. The average oil filter traps down to about 20 microns. That's going to stop anything that is thicker than the lubricant film and prevent damage. Some high end filters can do 5-10 microns. That's better. But oil also has acids, water and unburnt fuel and other contaminants in it. Crud in the sump is one thing. Crud in the combustion chamber's another. Crud in your injection system is very expensive.

I work on waste-oil furnaces and systems at junkyards and have a good friend with a Detroit-Diesel generator set that he runs a blend of WLO and Diesel to power his shop. I run a Diesel tractor myself and have worked on motors for years and years. So I have some experience in this. The maximum recommended WLO to Diesel ratio is 5% WLO to 95% Diesel. Some Diesel engines they do not recommend any WLO.

Newer Diesel engines with high-pressure direct-injection or Piezo injectors are extemely intolerant to contaminants and are quite expensive to overhaul. Even used veg oil conversions are a bad idea with them. If you're talking about one of the older mechanical engines I listed above, a little WLO won't hurt them if you do your work right.

Where will you get your WLO? Right now WLO is a commodity, used to be nobody wanted drain oil and it got dumped or you had to pay for hauling it away. Now people use it for heat, recycle it, and the stuff has money value. iirc right now between 40 and 50 cents per gallon. Plus, finding a source for it, hauling it, filtering it, storing it. There's some nasty stuff winds up in waste oil bottles. Kitty litter, broken parts, gasoline, cleaning solvents, leaves, water, etc.

[blackeagle603]

fwiw, 2002 7.3L Powerstroke here in a 4x4 Excursion. Bought in 2004 off lease at the dealer at ~40K.
Banks full plumbing upgrade, turbo and wastegate (except intercooler) since 60K.
Just did the oil and fuel filter yesterday at 210K.

Killed my original trans early backing up our 20% driveway grade with a 25' trailer well before 100K.

New factory trans with an aftermarket billet torque convertor and Banks shift controller killed the weak link.
Works much mo' betta now. Much nicer to drive. No ballooning out in a tough pull. No more trans temp rise on downhill grades when being pushed by a heavy trailer.

[evan price]

OK- Diesels really are not that programmable. The newer electronic direct-injection ones are with a data terminal or a software patch. They can take Class VIII trucks to 400 HP for flat-country cruising, the driver makes a phone call, the company mechanic logs into the truck remotely, and bumps you to 550 hp to go over the Rockies. Neat stuff. Not really applicable for light trucks nowadays- YET.

Yeah... no.

Learn about what you are speaking of before you speak. Particularly when you speak so authoritatively.

Uh, yes, you can.
It's called "Remote Fleet Management".

[Aglifter]

I think you skipped the bit about a diesel having a turbo, when you mentioned "all the air at every stroke".

I think that might be why the "emmisions per gallon" screwed them so much, aside from just being idiotic - it would explain why my TDI goes through an absurd amount of fuel, idling on a cold morning.

[evan price]

Yeah... no.

Learn about what you are speaking of before you speak. Particularly when you speak so authoritatively.

Uh, yes, you can.
It's called "Remote Fleet Management".

Not the point. The first and last parts of your statements are false.

You know a lot about one area, so you're assuming that knowledge applies in other areas without confirming.

You seem to not know that most light truck diesels are MASSIVELY programmable and tunable, as are their transmissions.

The 5.9/6.0/6.2 Cummins for example ships with between 325 and 400 horsepower and between 375ftlbs and 700ftlbs of torque; and typically gets between 20 and 24mpg in full size truck installations.

With simple reprogramming, and no mechanical changes whatsoever, that Cummins can put out 600 horsepower, and over 1000ftlbs of torque, or it can be tuned to get 27mpg in the same installations that were getting 24. The only difference mechanically is that the engine will run hotter and use more fuel on some of the horsepower settings... and actually less in some, while still providing more power; because they allow the engine to run somewhat more efficiently with a more optimized fuel map and turbo parameters (again, in exchange for more heat).

More heat could mean reduced longevity, but most report no difference. There is so much margin in factory installations that the additional heat doesn't cause any problems.

In fact, you can reprogram them on the fly, while driving, in real time, using realtime programming tools from bullydog, or Edge for example. You can switch from a maximum torque program for towing, to a full economy program, in the same drive.

Chris: Read the second sentence of what I wrote.

The newer electronic direct-injection ones are {programmable} with a data terminal or a software patch.

In the previous posting I was talking about the mechanically injected motors.
My previous pride and joy was a T444 powered Ford with a complete Banks turbo setup.
Yes, you can do a lot to a Diesel if you know what you're doing.

My stream of consciousness isn't always linear and thus the confusion.

Diesels are simple machines. You can either use less fuel or make more power. There's no in between.

The tuning you speak of is optimizing engine tune for your specific running conditions. Great, as long as that condition doesn't change.

Make more power, use more fuel. With a turbo you cram more air into the combustion chamber and you need more fuel. More power at expense of more fuel. The real serious coal rollers use propane injection for boost.

What are we arguing about, exactly?

[rightisright]

I surely don't have much knowledge of the internal workings of the diesel engine. But having owned several over the years and doing the math as to extra upfront cost v. fuel savings, it always came out a virtual wash. And the last time I did the math was when diesel was about the same cost as gas.

I get about 3-4 MPG more w. the diesels than similarly fitted gas rigs. About 10 MPG w. gas and 13-14 with diesel. Of course I have a heavy right foot. Being in the construction business, I also know a lot of others who drive diesels. Most get 14-16 MPG w. newer diesels. Maybe 20 on long highway trips using cruise control.

With diesel being more $$ than gas now, unless you are hauling all the time, I'd give diesel a second thought. My latest work truck is an 07 Tundra w. the big V8. Sucks gas like a beast but can pull 10,000# when needed. I wouldn't use it as a dedicated hauler, though. The diesels reign supreme there.

[Precision]

I surely don't have much knowledge of the internal workings of the diesel engine. But having owned several over the years and doing the math as to extra upfront cost v. fuel savings, it always came out a virtual wash. And the last time I did the math was when diesel was about the same cost as gas.

I get about 3-4 MPG more w. the diesels than similarly fitted gas rigs. About 10 MPG w. gas and 13-14 with diesel. Of course I have a heavy right foot. Being in the construction business, I also know a lot of others who drive diesels. Most get 14-16 MPG w. newer diesels. Maybe 20 on long highway trips using cruise control.

With diesel being more $$ than gas now, unless you are hauling all the time, I'd give diesel a second thought. My latest work truck is an 07 Tundra w. the big V8. Sucks gas like a beast but can pull 10,000# when needed. I wouldn't use it as a dedicated hauler, though. The diesels reign supreme there.

I get 17 to 19 around town and 22-24 on the highway. Same truck, with the hemi, gets 7-10 around town and 12-14 on the highway.

Diesel costs approximately 15% more than regular unleaded here.

That math more than works out.

The only time I have seen less than 17mpg was towing well over 10,000lbs. I got between 11mpg and 14mpg. Even towing a lighter trailer I got 17.

If your fuel economy is that poor in your diesel, your diesel is either worn out or seriously out of tune; or perhaps you are leaving it idling for hours at a time or always hauling several thousand pounds.

yup.

in rough numbers I pay about 15% more per gallon and get about 30% better mileage. My dad has a 2006 Dodge 1500 with the gas engine below the Hemi and I get 3+ MPG better than him in daily mixed driving (15 vs 18) and as much as 8 mpg better towing his boat. Mine is a 95.