Krav Maga ?

[Aglifter]

I actually meant 15 minutes for the whole workout, aside from stretches and abdominals...

Since I've pretty well hijacked the thread...

Bailing is one of the most critical things to learn to do - this doesn't mean you get to be a jackass, and drop weights all over the place - you'll quickly destroy equipment that way, unless you're using Oly bars, collars , a platform, and bumper plates - if you need to, I can tell you how to build a platform to work around the need for the Oly bar and the bumper plates.

A) make sure you're lifting area is clear, you need a safe direction for the weight to go.

B) While there's really no reason for the casual lifter to push the limits this hard, honestly, I usually end up bailing the last press of my work out (I also work out in a pasture on some very crude stuff, w. the collars bolted into the bar, so...) If you either lose control of the weight, or feel yourself struggling to maintain control - not lift it, but that its about to come out of "grove", or your joint feels, scary, or you just feel hinky, its time to bail.

C) Normally, bailing just consists of pushing the weight in a safe direction, and LETTING GO! The most important thing is to remember to open your hand, FIRST. (If you use straps, I'll try to remember where I got mine, really plain loops - safer, easier to bail - should be sufficient.)

D) If you have to fully bail. Slap away the bar. (Remember to slap - helps remind yourself to open your hands.) Turn your head to the side, slap your legs together, and your hands flat against your side, you may have to turn your feet. Its important to have either a large enough platform, or a clear area of floor (or pasture), since you need to be on a flat surface.

[TheIrishman]

Should I ? It's the only formalized martial art which appeals to me.

I was taking lessons last year before a run in with H1N1 put me on my ass. A few things to look for as far as being sure to find a "self defense" school as opposed to "martial arts" is whether they mention belts. There are no belts in KM, it is simple brutal fighting. I will say however it is fun. If you're looking for something as a challenge rather than a means to end a fight, combat sports might be more up your alley. There is very little grappling in KM, as the main theme is to hurt the other guy and run.

I'll go along to a trial lesson I think, but if there isn't any realistic sparring I'll pass.

The school I was attending did have sparring, but it was definitely slowed down. There is no way to gouge an eye/punch a throat in a sparring situation at full speed without hurting someone.

if a fight goes to the ground I'm screwed, the only thing I have left if that happens is biting.

Like I said, KM is not a lot of ground work. That is to say, you are taught to fight to get back up rather than pull an arm-bar out of you ass while getting kicked by 3 of your opponents buddies.By the way, my grandfather always told me "there's no such thing as a fair fight. If you can crush it, bite it or rip it off the only thing that matters is who's standing at the end". While frowned upon in sport, I've ripped out earings/kicked groins and once even choked out someone with the stupid dog chain he had around his neck.

I'm getting back onto the weight training just as soon as I can use the bench. Currently I've got a motorcycle taking up that area

I'd skip the bench(not for Aglifters reasoning as I'm sure he is correct but I have my own) and go with more functional strength exercises. Club bells, bulgarian bags and something like the TRX suspension system(I made my own from ratchet straps) are more suited(in my mind atleast) to combat training than weights.
The biggest factor in putting on weight is the same as taking it off, diet. Luckily due to genetics I am predisposed to be larger than average. Unfortunately if I'm not careful it goes too far and I end up a fat mess.
By the way, if that motorcycle that's in the way happens to be a unit trumpet or norton comando I'd be happy to take it off of your hands to free up some garage space. I wouldn't have a problem helping you out in the name of health and well being.

[Aglifter]

Not sure what a Bulgarian bag is - if it happens to be a large sandbag, those are an excellent means of exercising - and more forgiving than kegs and stones. (The usual use I know of for sand bags is as a safer means of doing certain exercises for situations where liability is a concern, but it is, almost certainly, a better choice for the recreational lifter. Usually, I'd recommend a solid foundation in basic lifts before doing strongman type exercises - and some yoga/tap/ballet footwork stuff if you're really serious about performance)

Club juggling, and proper kettlebell (not those idiotic swings) use are both excellent means of developing wrist and hand strength - so are pull-ups off ropes, etc. If you decide you want to develop hand strength - admittedly, probably quite useful in fighting - I can help w. some advice - one of the most important is to work on your hand expansion strength, to counter all the compression work.

Sorry I didn't think about the grip stuff - my usual means of physical self-defense involved picking up something large and walking toward whomever I felt was a threat. (Namely, a concrete filled pipe in Frankfurt one evening that was used as some kind of street barrier.)

[TheIrishman]

Not sure what a Bulgarian bag is - if it happens to be a large sandbag, those are an excellent means of exercising

Yeah, it's a sand(or in my homemade case rubber mulch) filled kidney/half moon shaped bag with handles. They're really good functional strength equipment as well as grip strength exercises.

Usually, I'd recommend a solid foundation in basic lifts before doing strongman type exercises

I use a small set of dumbbells(max 50lbs) for certain exercises(pull overs/shoulder presses) but use several bags ranging from 15-60lbs for most things.

Club juggling, and proper kettlebell (not those idiotic swings) use are both excellent means of developing wrist and hand strength - so are pull-ups off ropes, etc. probably quite useful in fighting

The other advantage is cost of equipment. Clubs, sand bags and a piece of rope slung over a tree branch of appropriate height are incredibly cheap. Add to that the fact they can be improvised or homemade(of course he being a machinist, his will look better than mine due to attention to detail), and take up much less space than a weight set.
I really do miss my old exercise routine though. Nothing builds functional strength like slinging 250# truck tires and diesel cylinder heads around all day for 15 years.

[Jericho941]

I'll go along to a trial lesson I think, but if there isn't any realistic sparring I'll pass.

The school I was attending did have sparring, but it was definitely slowed down. There is no way to gouge an eye/punch a throat in a sparring situation at full speed without hurting someone.

This is a problem a friend of mine had with Uechi-ryu. If you're learning a striking style that emphasizes striking for the eyes, throat, etc. it's difficult to usefully spar with it, and some dojos almost entirely forgo it in favor of katas. Although he loved the style, people who favored full-contact sparring styles scoffed at it and called it "Bullshido" which made discussing it with people outside of the art kind of a pain.

[doc Russia]

I took KM from a school up in Detroit, and it was excellent.
Have not found a similar caliber school nearby after I moved to Texas.
I fought/sparred with another Marine who had studied capoeira one time in 29 palms, and I pretty much mopped the floor with him. He did get a takedown on me, but I reversed it, sucked him in and hammered him for his success.
Krav maga is great, but as others have said; largely dependent upon your instructor.
Is it bad for LEOs?
I do not think so. I agree that you should not be using it for routine take downs, but the LEOs in our class were studying it to be able to survive potentially lethal encounters. That is, they figured that if it comes to hand to hand combat, it's best to win the fight, *then* worry about restraining someone. I do not disagree with this position.

[Nicodemus]

The only way to find out for sure is to try. Here are some tips from a long time Martial Artist and Self Defense Instructor.

The instructor should be approaching the content of training from the perspective of an understanding of:

-Types of violence (social, anti-social, a-social)
-Survival mind-set and killer instinct.
-Predator and Prey dynamic.
-Adrenal response and physiological reactions to stress.
-Body Mechanics

And this should be the basis for how and why they choose their:
-Techniques
-Drills
-Scenario Training
-Attribute Development

And their understanding of these things should be deep enough to be able to be flexible enough to maximize
-YOUR abilities


If he approaches your training as an opportunity to promote their style, organization or lineage than it is best to keep looking.

One of the crappy things about martial arts is you can have two instructors from the same style or even lineage that are completely different in actually developing combative skills in their students.

Don't pay too much attention to the name but be aware that most traditional martial arts are first and foremost obligated by one or more governing organizations to pass along a particular interpretation of history and tradition and/or develop skills within a specific competitive environment.

In my personal experience Jeet Kune Do Conecpts, Modern Combatives, Combat Kempo, Systema, Combat Sambo and Krav Maga credentialed through Israel are the way to go as they tend to focus on the above.

[Windy Wilson]

Interesting. I think the Krav Maga place near my home is mostly women's kickboxing, then. -- and I always thought a Capoeira was a large beaver-like South American rodent.
I hope this discussion continues, because I want to look into self-defense training once I recover from my various strains and sprains.

[rightisright]

-Types of violence (social, anti-social, a-social)

Interesting, Nicodemus. I've got a bunch of years of various martial arts under my belts (da dum dum), but I've never heard any instructor discuss that. Could you elaborate a bit?

[Mike OTDP]

I'll go along to a trial lesson I think, but if there isn't any realistic sparring I'll pass.

The school I was attending did have sparring, but it was definitely slowed down. There is no way to gouge an eye/punch a throat in a sparring situation at full speed without hurting someone.

This is a problem a friend of mine had with Uechi-ryu. If you're learning a striking style that emphasizes striking for the eyes, throat, etc. it's difficult to usefully spar with it, and some dojos almost entirely forgo it in favor of katas. Although he loved the style, people who favored full-contact sparring styles scoffed at it and called it "Bullshido" which made discussing it with people outside of the art kind of a pain.

A lot of the Okinawan styles are that way. I've been studying Shorin-ryu Matsamura Orthodox for over a decade, and we have a LOT of non-pullable moves. Elbow strikes, knee strikes...and if I grapple, it's to break something - or throw you with a punch or kick en route.

The big problem with the traditional arts is finding a good instructor. I suggest looking for clubs, not for-profit schools. Many of the top karateka are professionals who teach for the pleasure of teaching, not as a livelihood.