The Gun Counter

Since I cannot hook up my generator to my home via the meter box, I would like to know if a person fuse box can be wired to accept the power from a 3000 watt Honda generator. Also, I would run it from the inside of my truck shell area,( sliding windows open as the front small window). This set up would allow me to back up my 4x4 to my garage door, spool out my main power cord and connect it to my home fuse panel area and than I could turn on systems that I need. Also, this would allow a form of security for the generator and my power source would be portable.
Question, any problems of running a generator inside a shell with proper air supply? And, anyone hear of a sub-system for a homes fuse box to allow for a seperate power connection?
thanks Postmanone

For light electric loads, you could use a double male cord to power your breaker-box.
First, MAIN BREAKER OFF and secured to protect linesman working on the power lines.
Next, plug the generator output into an outlet, (I have one on the front porch) and you
can power the other circuits backwards through the circuit-breakers. I used this method with
a 700-watt portable generator on the porch during a long winter power failure, to power
the thermostat system on my propane heater. It couldn't start any of my refrigerators but
could power several lamps. When outside power is restored, SHUT DOWN and unplug the
generator, then reset the main breaker. I have a light on my power pole that tells me when
power is back.

The double male power cord has to be wired so that you get hot-to-hot and neutral-to-
neutral. It should be stored with the generator so that nobody tries to use it for anything else.

For safety, make sure that your main breaker COMPLETELY isolates your house wiring from
the outside source.

CByrneIV wrote:

442nd Dinochrome wrote:For light electric loads, you could use a double male cord to power your breaker-box.

As far as I'm concerned, that's an emergency only solution.

Double male cords are also a great way to shock yourself. At some point, you will forget to connect the power drain first and the source afterwards, upon which you will be issued with a reminder of the electrifying variety. If it's wimpy 110V, that's not too awful, but 220V and upwards is not funny.

CByrneIV wrote:

442nd Dinochrome wrote:For light electric loads, you could use a double male cord to power your breaker-box.

As far as I'm concerned, that's an emergency only solution. If you are preparing, you should prepare the right way. A crossover switch isn't expensive, and it's the right way to do it.

Yep, you're right. It was an emergency; -15 outside and no power for fourteen hours.
If I'd been thinking about it back in 1990, I'd have gone with propane furnaces that self-
power their thermostats with thermocouples like the ones at my sister's house; no AC
required!

Denis wrote:
Double male cords are also a great way to shock yourself. At some point, you will forget to connect the power drain first and the source afterwards, upon which you will be issued with a reminder of the electrifying variety. If it's wimpy 110V, that's not too awful, but 220V and upwards is not funny.

Yeah, it was an emergency procedure. I'm always extra careful with the hot stuff.

+1 on the transfer/crossover panel. Not only is it safer for you, it protects linemen working outside who are under the assumption the power is OFF.

While typing this too-long post, others have posted. Chris is SORTA right - NONE of this should be done PERIOD IMHO - but it's a worthy mental-exercise, IMHO.

I've gotta pretty strongly disagree with the "feed 110 into an outside plug" idea - the most obvious point is that you'll be feeding 110 into your panel, and depending on how the panel's guts are set up you could be feeding 55v instead of 110 to your outlets - this WILL fry electronics and other stuff.

The double-male plug is also a hazard - what I describe below is a theoretical mental-exercise about what some hypothetical guy did, and he's theoretically planning to change the fittings so his double-male cord becomes a double-female.

With a female on the "house" end of your cable, you can buy surface-mount, shrouded male receptacles in waterproof enclosures and mount the "in" on the outside of your house.

My eventual plan is to install a propane-powered automatic generator on a pad - the cost is surprisingly low, and it's the best way I know to make sure my utility power NEVER goes out again! This, along with propane stove and water-heater should make life a breeze in almost any conditions even if the power fails.

What I'm about to say is WAAAAAY outside code in every jurisdiction (I am sure).

Ergo, one should NEVER do such a thing - it should be well understood that this is only a theoretical/hypothetical discussion

Further, if you should decide to implement any of these hypothetical ideas, you'd assume all responsibility for all outcomes!! IANAL, nor an electrician, and this discussion should only be considered an intellectual exercise!!

That said, I've read hypothetical discussions that discussed - in theory - the following:

First, our hypothetical hero should make 100%, DAMN-SURE that his main breaker cuts both poles of the incoming power-line. The VERY REAL danger exists that he could accidentally back-feed the power grid and injure or kill line-workers, fry his gen-set or burn his house down. ELECTRICITY KILLS. Never forget this fact.

With that in mind, here's one theoretical way to get through an emergency.

Our hypothetical hero could - theoretically install a breaker of proper amperage (after running the calculations - to just shy of the gen's max output) attached to a hypothetical wall-mounted, grounded dryer-plug, then - theoretically - label the breaker "Gen-in" or something suitable. Alternatively, he could also (hypothetically)use his existing dryer plug if the breaker is of proper size. Naturally, the BEST option would be to have a shrouded "male" socket on the wall and a female end on the cord...

One would - theoretically - then use a heavy cable - with proper fittings on each end to attach his generator to said dryer-plug. Our hypothetical hero should be EXTREMELY careful to get suitable cable - it should be stranded-core (for flexibilty) and rated for the max power which could EVER be run through it. For example, our hypothetical hero could have a buddy with a big trailer-mounted Caterpillar diesel generator capable of running several houses -- he wouldn't want to melt his cable by pulling too much power through it! The theoretical cost for such cable several years ago was in the range of $5 per foot - the stuff is (theoretically) an inch thick!

Most gen-sets have female outputs - again, it would be best if this could be changed to a shrouded male, but a theoretical man's gotta do what a theoretical man's gotta do...

The (hypothetical!) "implementation" would go as follows:

(1) GEN OFF!! Turn off ALL breakers, hypothetically starting with the the main "in" from utility power.
(2) GEN OFF / ALL BREAKERS OFF!! - attach cord from gen to dryer/other plug
(3) Go through the entire hypothetical house and unplug all electronics, wall-warts, etc - most gen-power is FILTHY and will fry this stuff. Theoretically, incandescent lights are OK, anything else is iffy. Theoretically power-conditioning UPS units can be used to filter/supplement power to some electronics, but one could fry the UPS and the device so our hypothetical hero should really consider what he's doing...
(4) DOUBLE-CHECK ALL breakers - AGAIN, REMEMBER: MAIN OFF/ALL BREAKERS OFF at this hypothetical point.
(5) Double-check hypothetical cord connection to be sure all is well. Our hypothetical hero can't be too safe here - he REALLY doesn't want to get zapped by 3KW @ 220v!!
(6) Start the hypothetical Generator, wait for it to warm up
(7) TRIPLE-CHECK that all breakers - ESPECIALLY THE MAIN!! - are off, then turn on the hypothetical "gen-in" breaker.

At this point our hypothetical hero will have 220V "back-feeding" into his panel through the dryer-plug.
(8) He could - hypothetically - then turn on only the necessary breakers to allow his family to get through the crisis.

One hypothetical guy I heard about has a 6.5KW gen-set, and found he can hypothetically run some lights, his furnace and his well-pump with no real strain on the Gen. If he hypothetically turns off his well-pump and minimizes other use, he can even run his hot-water heater to heat the water, then when the HWH turns off he can cut its breaker, re-enable the well-pump and everyone in his hypothetical family can (theoretically) have a hot shower!

To hypothetically return to theoretical utility power, our hypothetical hero should:

(1) Turn off all breakers EXCEPT the theoretical "gen-in" breaker
(2) Turn off the theoretical "gen-in" breaker
(3) Shut down the gen-set - our hypothetical hero usually does so by cutting the theoretical fuel-supply and letting it run until the carburetor is empty - otherwise the fuel evaporating might - theoretically - gum up the carb and keep the gen from running.
(4) WAIT UNTIL THE HYPOTHETICAL GENERATOR HAS COMPLETELY STOPPED RUNNING, then turn all switches/breakers/etc on the gen-set to OFF!!
(5) Return to the panel and DOUBLE-CHECK THAT ALL (hypothetical) BREAKERS -- ESPECIALLY "GEN-IN" and the MAIN!! - are off.
(6) Return to the Gen-set, and unplug the (hypothetical) cable from the gen-set, being careful to handle the theoretical plug by its plastic plug, and NEVER to touch the exposed prongs!!
(7) CAREFULLY bring the hypothetical generator-end of the cable back over to the breaker-box, being careful to handle the theoretical plug by its plastic plug, and NEVER to touch the exposed prongs!!
(8) Unplug the hypothetical dryer-plug end of the cable from the theoretical dryer plug. Lay the cable-ends aside
(9) CHECK AGAIN to be sure that all the hypothetical breakers are off and everything is unplugged, then turn on the theoretical "main"
(10) Turn on all other hypothetical breakers as usual, plug in all the theoretically-unplugged stuff in the house, and thank G*D you survived the whole theoretical mental-exercise experience.

Naturally, one should also at this point top off his gen-set with stabilized fuel, change the oil if he's even close to the time specified by his maintenance schedule - he wouldn't want to have to shut down in the middle of a storm to do basic maintenance on his gen-set.

Some other (hypothetical) tips: Our hero has found that the little "candlestick" lights from the Christmas decorations are good for emergency lighting. While one will probably want a real light/lamp for group gatherings, things like halls/stairs/bathrooms/etc can be lit just fine with one of these tiny lights, and thus free up wattage for other stuff.

He also uses frozen water-bottles for his "ice-machine" to ice down his screwed-up knee. He bought special water-bottles for this purpose - the cheapest ($2 or less per 24) he could find. He's started filling all empty space in his freezer with these bottles. It takes a little more juice to freeze them, but it saves money every day since a full freezer is easier to cool. If he needs room in the freezer, simply remove some bottles and transfer them to the 'fridge side - this will still reduce electricity usage on an ongoing basis.

In an outage the full freezer can - if kept closed - last for several days without thawing due to all the added mass/reduced air-space inside. He can - in an emergency - pull some bottles and place them on the top of the 'fridge side to keep it cool as well. One thing our hero learned to do is - when running on the generator - to turn off the fridge in the daytime - relying on the aforementioned ice - and at night to cut off the well-pump (to prevent overloading the gen) and turn on the 'fridge so it can catch up. He'll also move the bottles from the fridge back to the freezer overnight so they can re-freeze. He uses a cheap wireless thermometer bought at a "big-lots" type store to monitor the temp inside the fridge / freezer during outages - just to be safe and avoid thawing or spoiled food. Just put the small "sender" inside and you're all set!

A couple of other notes: Our (hypothetical) hero's gen-set has little round "push-button" type breakers. If overloaded, one of them will pop - at which point he's only feeding one "leg" of his breaker-box with 110. This low-voltage WILL kill electronics - so he knows he needs to be careful not to overload it!!

A device called a "kill-a-watt" will tell you how much juice every device in your home is pulling - peak and steady - and gather the data over time. A simple "home-store" meter is not enough - you want the kill-a-watt because it gathers data over time. A meter with the "ring" on the top can clamp around wires and read their load - this helps gather info on amps pulled by well-pumps, water-heaters and other devices that are hard-wired into the system. A simple search should help you find the right formulas or even online calculators to convert volts and amps into watts for your calculation. If you use such a device, be sure to measure its startup and constant loads - almost everything pulls more juice while starting than it will once it is running... It's the PEAK load you need to worry about - this is what will blow the breakers on your gen-set...

Lastly, I'd like to repeat what others have said: Do it right, if you can - these hypothetical methods aren't the best way to go...

HTH!!

DD

rightisright wrote:+1 on the transfer/crossover panel. Not only is it safer for you, it protects linemen working outside who are under the assumption the power is OFF.

This is a valid concern, however if one's "main" breaker is truly a disconnect, there's no real worry. Further, you can count on the fact that the guys working on power-lines NEVER assume anything. Still, one should never do anything that might place them at risk.

Yes, your main could - in theory - not work properly, but then the same could apply to a transfer switch or other stuff. If your panel is truly dead when the main is off, that means no juice is getting in - ergo none can get out as well.

The transfer switch cuts the main before enabling the gen-in, thus making it "idiot-proof." A human - assuming he takes the extreme care to do things right - can do the same thing. My hypothetical hero has a checklist and insists on another family-member following and agreeing to each step so as to ensure safety to everyone in and outside his home...

DD

Similar discussion recently on a HAM APRS mail list. Some points brought out in there;

A transfer switch is required by code in many places for hooking a generator to a house.

In some areas, having a power crew find a generator powering a house feeding through an outlet and not a transfer switch results in that house's feed being disconnected at the transformer and that area/neighborhood being placed at the bottom of the power restoration priority list. Said homeowner will be assessed a reconnection fee same as if he had his power disconnected for non-payment before power is restored to his house.

Having such a situation arise can do really mean nasty things to your homeowner insurance rates. And forget about being covered under liability insurance if anything goes wrong as a result of not using a transfer switch.

IMHO, besides being the right way, it's also safer economically if Brother Murphy should make an appearance.

OTOH, to play Devil's advocate, relying on a transfer switch to protect the grid (and the people working to repair it) from your generator is placing all of your faith in a device, and as we all know, devices can fail at the worst time. Seems like rigid adherence to a well designed checklist would be akin to following the four rules, instead of just relying on a weapon's safety device to prevent a tragedy.

Dedicated_Dad wrote:I've gotta pretty strongly disagree with the "feed 110 into an outside plug" idea - the most obvious point is that you'll be feeding 110 into your panel, and depending on how the panel's guts are set up you could be feeding 55v instead of 110 to your outlets - this WILL fry electronics and other stuff.

Not exactly. In 99% of house main breaker panels, what you will do is hot up only one buss if you plug in a generator that is making single phase 110/125. This is because almost all modern home breaker panels are set up with two 110/125 busses. Together they make your 220/250 volt circuits. You could hook a jumper from one buss to the other, but that's even more hinky.

Otherwise, DD, you are pretty much correct in your "theoretical" post.

If you are going to backfeed your main breaker panel in an emergency, the best way is to use the 220 volt outlet on the portable generator to feed a 220/250 outlet, such as a clothesdryer or water heater plug. This will hot up both buss bars in your home breaker panel with 110/125.
PLEASE remember to turn off the main house breaker to prevent backfeeding the power grid. Transformers work both ways. In fact, if the line repair workers are in your neighborhood and see what you are doing, they will likely either pull your meter head or disconnect your house feed transformer just to be safe.
I know I would, unless you have a lockable 3-way disconnect between your meter base and main house breaker.

The best way to do it is spend the money to hook up the proper generator subpanel. They aren't that expensive. Northern Tools sells them. Your local electrical supply house probably does, or can order them.
Do it right. Don't risk damaging your house, or injuring a line repair worker.