The Tactical Bolt Action - a Technical Discussion.

[Combat Controller]

Bastard!

[Jericho941]

Heh. It's probably still a legitimate item of discussion when gun makers are slapping "Tactical" on everything these days (I'm looking at YOU, Remington). So determining the usefulness of "tactical" weapons and gear in a "tactical" situation isn't really time wasted.

[DougWojtowicz]

I was thinking of this thread more along the lines of the Cooper Scout concept.

Tactical Bolt Action as all around tool - for work from in-house smackdown to taking down someone at real rifle distances. You'd want a good sized magazine capacity, or fast reloadability with stripper clips, lightweight to have with you, and real toughness.

Over at MadOgre, George Hill has spoken often and lovingly of the CZ 527 carbine in 7.62mm x 39mm COMBLOC. It's short and handy, has a good size reservoir, and is great to 300 meters. I've taken to calling it the Ogre Scout and think that for people in more urban and suburban environments would be better served with this than a .308 Winchester.

[1911Man]

1. Winchester model 70, Remington 7x, or directly derived Mauser 98 based action (CRF)
2. 5 shot repeater with detachable box magazine
3. Chambered in 7.62x51
4. 20" medium weight, low taper barrel
5. McMillan field target style stock (m24 type)
6. Harris type, extra height, adjustable and quick detachable bipod
7. A high quality 6-10x variable or 6x fixed with a large objective

I'd rather have a 20" bull barrel. Other than that, you nailed my specs.

[SoupOrMan]

Heavens! I haven't seen anyone make a demand for a Mauser 98 action in .300 Win Mag with a 20" barrel with internal brake/compensator A ten-round detachable magazine is a given.

Then again, I'm still waiting for the Holland & Holland folks to stop laughing and give me a quote on the 20" H&H Manor Defence Shotgun in 12 gauge, too.

[SeekHer]

Everything HTRN wrote about lately is wanting a new F-Class rifle and thinking along those lines…Do you know the difference between a F-Class rifle and a military and in many cases a police, sniper rifle? No, I mean this! I’m asking because I can’t find any difference (excluding some caliber choices) and would like to know…

The MS Word thesaurus gives planned, strategic, calculated, deliberate, considered and intentional for synonyms for the word tactical and the Macmillan Contemporary Dictionary defines;

Tactic – from the Greek taktikos fit for arranging.
1. Plan of action or device used to achieve a goal.
2. Method or arranging and using military forces in action.

Tactical –
1. Of or relating to tactics esp. combat tactics.
2. Showing skill in tactics, characterized by careful planning and maneuvering.

Tactics -
1. The art and sciences of using and moving military forces and equipment in actual …combat. Distinguished from strategy.
2. Such arrangement and use of military forces.
3. Any methods or devices employed to achieve a goal.

Go to any training school now-a-days and “tactical rifle” is long distance shooting at known and unknown distances with a scoped bolt action rifle in 85% of the cases and the other 15% it will be with an M14 or FN-Fal or equivalent…Again, we were talking tactical rifles not battle rifles and bolt not semi/full auto…

It’s this damn “PC” bullshit where you can’t call a spade a dark digging implement…Make it a “Sniper” course and you have all your namby pamby, liberal, tree hugging ass holes out there protesting it but put the name tactical on and somehow it’s ok? I go out and hunt and kill sweet little deer and other critters I don’t harvest them!!! Because I didn’t sew any to reap!

The military has battle rifles and carbines, pistols, shotguns, machine guns but no tactical small arms…Yes, they have weapons used in a tactical method but no designator saying this is a tactical shotgun as opposed to a sporting shotgun…All weapons in the military are for tactical uses first and foremost and if a pleasurable activity can also be achieved—bonus…

Go to Cooper’s old school, Gunsite, and take their rifle course…Their three carbine course are done with the AR15 and their three “precision” rifle courses are for scoped mounted rifles either in a traditional or scout set up as are the only other two courses are for hunters and only their one double rifle course is for open sights…Are they the exception to the norm—far from it! But at least they aren’t calling the courses tactical! Chuck Taylor’s American Small Arms Academy calls it Tactical and Tactical Precision…John Farnham & Front Sight call theirs Practical Rifle…Gabe Suarez calls it Fighting Rifle or Rifle Gunfighting…Thunder Ranch calls is Tactical Handgun but Urban Rifle

Am I suddenly tactical because I’m wearing a “Molle” vest with some pouches or my 13 yr. old daughter’s backpack has “Molle” strips on it while we’re out bird watching as a family…The stuff is labeled as such and the manufacturer must know what they’re making, don’t you think? You would think so, wouldn’t you? It says so right on it tactical backpack and tactical vest! Maybe it means that it has been built to a certain standard that the military require for their equipment, especially if it has a military designator number on it…

Now, many BR shooters will tell you that you don’t make centerfire rifle barrels under 20” accurate—it has to do with burning gases completely inside, not outside, the barrel—or rimfire barrels over and they will be absolutely correct…so the trade off of a couple of inches, for mobility, is certainly trumped by the fact that the shooter doesn’t want to miss their shot or certainly pinpoint his location (shorter barrels are louder)…22” is the most commonly sold barrel length for a commercial .308 BOLT rifle (Semi custom houses like Iron Brigade & Tactical Precision use 26”) but magnums, like the .300 Win Mag require more room to burn so they get 24” & 26” barrels and a larger caliber, with a bigger case yet, requires more room so you’ll see 32” & 34” on .50 BMGs…

You see the barrel length isn’t for ease of carry but to achieve optimal burn of the charge and it’s [strike]senseless[/strike] sheer stupidity to have a too short barrel that will give you only 60% of the inherent power of the cartridge… You could always use a gun like a Thomson Center Encore if you really wanted short but then you’re limited to single shots…You really want to make a bolt rifle handy then make the stock collapsible or foldable and extend then to full length when you get to your sangar (shooting position, hidden) This way you can have your required for accuracy longer barrel but in a compact form…Then comes the problem as they can’t be deployed, properly, when configured that way…think of trying to aim and shoot with just a pistol grip and having to extend both hands, holding the gun, for you to get a sight picture…

But it all goes back to what the intended, primary, purpose of the gun shall be…If I’m going to use it in an Urban environment, say as a SWAT marksman, then 20” or 22” is more then ideal…If I’m shooting outdoors then a 24” to 26” barrel is preferred—look at any F-Class rifle for examples and if I’m pushing the envelope to the extreme range of my cartridge then 30” or better is required…Designate your style and purpose and the gun design will follow suit…

This is, again, an example of what my long range 3KM gun will look like…
Edited:

[SeekHer]

Then again, I'm still waiting for the Holland & Holland folks to stop laughing and give me a quote on the 20" H&H Manor Defence Shotgun in 12 gauge, too. :lol:

The "Sporting" O/U or the Round Action S/S start at £38,500...Although they prefer to build them with 25"/64cm barrels as the shortest length they have built then shorter especially in double rifle configurations where 24"/61cm are standard...

[Combat Controller]

I think of tactical as a means to an end for the mission. It does not have to be labeled as such to work. Hence my coining of the term "Old School Tactical".

All the rest is marketing bullshit.

[Captain Wheelgun]

I was thinking of this thread more along the lines of the Cooper Scout concept.

Tactical Bolt Action as all around tool - for work from in-house smackdown to taking down someone at real rifle distances. You'd want a good sized magazine capacity, or fast reloadability with stripper clips, lightweight to have with you, and real toughness.....

Kind of like this?

Lee-Enfield Scout

Another View...

It's a little heavier than Cooper's ideal specs, but that's OK for me, the extra weight helps with recoil.

[AZMARK]

Do you know the difference between a F-Class rifle and a military and in many cases a police, sniper rifle? No, I mean this! I’m asking because I can’t find any difference (excluding some caliber choices) and would like to know…

Only differences I've seen are minor variations of stocks and the military/police shoot off bi-pods, where as F-Class are using an adjustable front rest.