Future Olympic Shooting Events (USPSA, IPSC)

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SeekHer
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Re: Future Olympic Shooting Events (USPSA, IPSC)

Post by SeekHer »

CByrneIV wrote:One must admit, the practical shooting disciplines are utterly dominated by the U.S.

The only other countries that tend to be consistently competitive in the few truly international competitions (IPSC does a decent job of being international; IDPA less so) are the U.K., Canada, Germany, Austria, Italy, France, Australia, the Philippines, and South Africa; and for most of them it's because they field police and military teams.

I'm not sure you can really build an Olympic sport with 10 teams.
You also forgot Spain, Portugal, Israel--which hosted the International 2 years ago, Brazil, Argentina, Morocco, Russia, a number of the Arab states, Greece, Sweden and I think Denmark but it might be Norway, Holland and some others who I've forgotten...We mustn’t forget Taiwan, Indonesia and of course Korea and China…The last two did very well in the shooting sports…

There is enough there for a fair representation of the world's countries as NOT EVERY country HAS TO BE represented at and/or in ALL the games according to the statutes...Prime examples is the Jamaican bobsled team when Calgary hosted the Winter Olympics...and when Russia and at a later Olympics the US boycotted and refused to attend let alone participate in altogether…

They also have to want to play…they might not have the athlete base to draw from, the games may be totally foreign to them, they might be able to afford the training, building the training facility(s) and/or the participation at the games due to monetary concerns…How many countries were there that during the walk on opening night had only one person and a standard bearer or maybe four, five or six including the flag person…I believe two countries fielded only judges or referees or some such official…Not every country can have a base of 250+ million people, usually healthy, people, to draw from and where a State’s Minimum Hourly Wage is what some people live on for a week…The government can’t feed themselves how they going to field any athletes except from the rich and healthy…

I’m surprised at how well the Canadians did in these last games, in all sports, as funding hadn’t trickled down to the athletes or sports committees who oversee the training and rules and regulations…If an athlete has to work two jobs just so they can train is ludicrous to say the least…I’m not saying that it should be a free ride all the way but some funding has to be made available for them and their training centers shouldn’t be closed down like the 10M air pistol champ from Toronto had done to her a fortnight before she was to leave…They, the two Shooting Committees, figured to have sent either of my daughters to the Olympics in 10m pistol or singles trap would have been around $85,000+ per person to cede them through the four years excluding airfare and the cost of ammunition!

We would have had to come up with at least $20,000 (to maybe $25,000) per child in China just for admissions, room & board, airfare, equipment and a spare and luckily most of the tryout games were held here or within close driving distance so additional costs were a lot less the having to fly to every competition ( six of us, with four contestants, in one van is a lot cheaper then airfare and car rental)…I’m extremely proud of them even though they didn’t make the teams but they certainly tried and came damn close just like their dad did when trying for a berth at the 1967 Pan Am Games in Winnipeg and the 1968 Olympic Games in Mexico City…I made it to the finals and they were eliminated in the pre-finals (semi) but they are both still very young and will be able to try for six maybe seven more Olympics…

The prowess might be high in the “tactical” gunsports within the USA but the other teams didn’t fare badly at the International events the last few years…I used to check out the results on S T I’s site--and the Chi-Comm and former Comm countries (Russia & Ukraine) did pretty damn good in the precision shooting…

They now have the new water sports—wind or sailboards, surfing and whitewater kayak--snowboards, ping pong that have snuck their ways into competition…Judo was there since WW2 and now karate has become recognized…So long as people continue to design weird and wonderful playthings, regardless of what they are, and two or more people can compete against themselves and the other guys then new sports will be added to the Games…Summer luge—one person sled (skateboard actually)—down a crooked hill side is a thrill sport as is skateboarding and roller/inline hockey or any of the “X” games like BMX bikes are all being considered or have been added to the Games—maybe for the time being as spectator sport only status but they are at least there...The gold medal for “pingy ponga” goes to……….(insert name)!

There are certain sports that have to be on the roster even though they have no military baring anymore, javelin, shot-put, discus, fencing, Pentathlon, decathlon...Remember the basis for the games was prowess of weapons, to be competed against the Kings’ champions and stuff like that…Same as the Scottish Highland Games with the hammer, rock and Caber tossing which were meant to kill or to inflict serious and grave injury on their opponent(s)…

I just found out today that the head of the US Pentathlon group is the actor Dolph Lundgren who originally came to the USA to study at MIT on a Fulbrite Scholarship in chemical engineering...Who'd have thunk it?
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Mike OTDP
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Re: Future Olympic Shooting Events (USPSA, IPSC)

Post by Mike OTDP »

Tell me about the costs of competing at the international level :(

Let me put it this way. Last month, I competed in the World Muzzle-Loading Championships. Held in Adelaide, Australia. Our fundraising efforts managed to cover caps, powder, match entry fees, and transport to/from the range (a not inconsiderable expense, it was an hour's drive from Adelaide).

But every single one of the fourteen competitors on the U.S. Team paid $3,800 in airfare and lodging. And covered meals out of his or her own pocket.

Which is why we fielded fourteen competitors, instead of three times that number. And when you are shooting against teams like the Germans, who have all travel expenses covered and are paid prize money on top, it makes things right difficult.
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Aglifter
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Re: Future Olympic Shooting Events (USPSA, IPSC)

Post by Aglifter »

A big part of the issue could be awareness. When I was competing for A&M, it was always a challenge to arrange the funds to get our eligible athletes to go to the world championships -- we were always denied funding from A&M, and so we'd scrape what together what we could, and wash cars, etc to get anyone who qualified to be able to go -- then, we mentioned our difficulties to the alumnai association, which, to my knowledge, has solved all the funding problems in that regard.

The USSF is barely known, most people believe, I did until I got more involved, that the NRA takes care of much of this kind of stuff. For those of you involved in those sports, maybe taking an ad in American Rifleman wouldn't be a bad idea...
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Mike OTDP
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Re: Future Olympic Shooting Events (USPSA, IPSC)

Post by Mike OTDP »

We might, if we had the money. Things are pretty tight on the U.S. International Muzzle-Loading Team. We're running on fumes.

However, if anyone is in the Winchester, VA area on the evening of 2 October, we are having an auction to raise money for the 2010 team. Lots of shooting & hunting related items. And if you want to make a teax-deductible contribution, let me know.
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SeekHer
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Re: Future Olympic Shooting Events (USPSA, IPSC)

Post by SeekHer »

Mike OTDP wrote:Damn, I thought I would be able to stay out of this....

First, the odds of some sort of defensive shooting becoming an Olympic event are significant. It was seriously considered for the 2004 Games. They might have to fiddle with the targets a bit, but that is do-able. Square, rectangular, or oval targets MIGHT be desirable. The bigger issue is figuring out just who speaks for that community. Right now, you've got IPSC and IDPA claiming to be international, and therefore with a claim to jurisdiction. But until there is one outfit that is acknowledged to have sole jurisdiction over a proposed Olympic event, it's no soap.

Second, the biggest obstacle is not Political Correctness. It's the lack of global participation. The International Olympic Committee is not in the business of giving one country a lock on the medals in a given event. It's why baseball and softball have been stricken...you may as well just hand the Americans the gold medals. It was a farce. Go take a look at fencing. THAT sport, one of the few competed for in all the modern Summer Games, was on the bubble. The medals were all going to France, Italy, Germany, and Russia. Until last month, when American fencers did quite well and a fencer from Tanzania (yes, Tanzania) made a final 8. Blew the European monopoly wide open, and made the case for keeping fencing on the Olympic roster far, far stronger. Now, just how many countries would have a real shot at the medals in a proposed new event? One. Which is a show-stopper.

Third, a sport may not want to pay the price that being on the Olympic roster carries. We in the international black powder shooting community have been looking at becoming an Olympic event ourselves...and the implications are very serious. The number of competitors that a sport gets to have at the Games is quite restricted, and this usually means that half the events that you would include get tossed out. Go to a ISSF World Championships, and you will find a bushel of events that aren't shot in the Olympic Games. Not from Political Correctness, but because there isn't space. Furthermore, if you get onto the Olympic schedule, you can forget about ANY of the big-name 'run-and-gun' types making the team. Because the professional military teams will take it over. And finally, most Olympic events are scrambling desperately to stay on the Olympic roster. Rules changes, format changes...you would not believe what fencing has done in the last twenty years. We in the MLAIC world have a lot of people who think it is decidedly not worth the trouble. Better to stay off the Olympic roster...and stay our own masters.

Finally, I'm starting to get a little tired of the BS belittling of the precision shooting disciplines. I'm seeing a hell of a lot of sour grapes...most of which I would bet is coming from people who haven't the skill to come close to hitting a target at 50 meters, much less shooting a respectable score. Take the time and effort spent in sneering and invest it in practice, and maybe you can be an Olympic champion.
Political Correctness is passé now; the new phrase is Politically Sensitive…

That will still be the issue with tactical gun sports making it into the Olympics…Sure, you can redesign the targets, with pretty swirls and odd—make that non human shaped—targets and you still have to write up what the sport is about, for, was designed to do, the rules and regulations, history, scoring methods and that’s when the namby pambys get you and shove pointed sticks into your eyes…Even, as I have pointed out, the original games were all military based both the ancient and modern…

The masses would rather seen two contestants battling each other over a ping pong net—no evil murdering guns there—then see a master of the revolver or pistol perform or tactical rifle, shotgun 3 gun events…

It’s not only the tactical sports being shunned but the Cowboy Action Shooting (CAS) and of course your International Muzzleloaders or the standard muzzleloaders of the NMLRA getting in and the likes of the Single Shot Rifle Assoc. for Schuetzen and BPCR getting back in after being dropped I believe after the First World War… It’s because guns are evil don’t you know…

There is only one thing wrong with the Olympic shooting sports, excluding trap, it is extremely boring to watch and unless they mount cameras right in front of the targets, impossible to see…At least the clay targets explode into a puff of smoke when hit…If we made the targets reactive, falling down, electronic turning to face you or whatever other design you come up with would be a far better thing to shoot then only a piece of paper…

Don't know why this one didn't go through with the last posting I made, sorry for it being out of sequence! I had a wrong formatting on it when I just got back to the computer and its been sitting all day, waiting...
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Mike OTDP
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Re: Future Olympic Shooting Events (USPSA, IPSC)

Post by Mike OTDP »

I'm not so sure, Seekher. Particularly since the IOC has been taking flak for the introduction of the "made for TV" spandex sports.

I'll concede that CAS is DOA with the IOC (hey, acronym city!). Mostly because of the costumes. I think the PC problems with tactical shooting can be addressed, particularly because if I were trying to do some sort of Olympic Defensive Shooting match, I'd be using metal plates and/or Pepper poppers...because it would be the most TV-friendly. FWIW, the scoring I would be looking at would be time to complete the stage + penalties for misses.

I think the lack of widespread competitiveness is a bigger issue, as well as the lack of a single international governing body.

As to the long-range shooting events, there is a much simpler factor - lack of facilities. Right now, the World Long-Range Muzzle-Loading Championships bounce between the US, the UK, and South Africa...because there are so very few 1,000-yard ranges. Go looking for a 900-m range in Europe, and you are in for a long, hard search. It's played hob with the European long-range competitors.

And there is another...there is tremendous pressure to take sports and competitors OUT of the Olympic Games. A Summer Games will have 20,000 competitors. Factor in judges and coaches, and the host city is on the hook to provide secure lodging for 30,000 people. Add in the venues, and you start to understand why there are so few cities willing to bid.

Which means that when the IOC adds a sport, they often wind up deleting a sport, or telling the various international bodies that govern each sport that they have fewer participants. Shooting took two face shots in 2004, with the loss of Running Target and Women's Double Trap. And thank you, but I'd rather not see any of the existing Olympic shooting events get thrown under the bus.

What I'd like to see the IOC do is to break up the Summer Games into Spring, Summer, and Autumn Games. The Spring Games would be dedicated to indoor sports, which are customarily practiced over the winter. The Summer Games would focus on water sports...after all, you go swimming when the water is reasonably warm. And the Autumn Games would focus on outdoor sports, as the climax to a season of practice and competition. Such an arrangement would cut each Games to about 10,000 people. This would afford room to grow.
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SeekHer
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Re: Future Olympic Shooting Events (USPSA, IPSC)

Post by SeekHer »

Mike, you're preaching to the converted.

Games are going to be added and removed as the IOC deems it, that's a given...The problem is that there are now so many "fringe" sports out there that they would rather see in the Games then the unPC, sorry unPS, bang, bang, shoot-em up sports that have very little audience appeal...they are more concerned about TV coverage, advertisers and how will it look to the liberal left then about the sport itself...

I belittled and bemoaned ping-pong and I shouldn't have as it is a very tough game to play and with a table in the basement that I get killed on I know of what I speak...BUT it is a very interesting, high stress and fast paced game to watch--for an audience whether local or televised and that is why they got in...

Cowboy action can always do away with the costumes but what is there really to complain about, jeans, runners instead of boots (so you don't tear up the sod in a moving event), a shirt and vest and a cowboy hat but when I first started shooting BP I went to the firing line like that minus the vest and nobody said boo...I remember one young lady wearing Spandex sports bra and bike shorts that was quite memorable to watch…At Friendship only some of the participants are garbed in period attire at the firing line as the majority are there for the shooting not re-creating, re-enacting or playing dress up…

I mean Mike; do you wear straight cut shoes, knee hose, pantaloons, weskit over a billowy-sleeved shirt and a floppy hat when shooting matchlock events at the Internationals? Then why should they at the Olympics!

There are few tactical events for the same reason, there aren’t 1,000 yard ranges everywhere or they are too small to accommodate enough shooters at once…even F-Class is feeling the pinch as well as there aren’t many 600 yard ranges either…
Mike OTDP wrote:And there is another...there is tremendous pressure to take sports and competitors OUT of the Olympic Games. A Summer Games will have 20,000 competitors. Factor in judges and coaches, and the host city is on the hook to provide secure lodging for 30,000 people. Add in the venues, and you start to understand why there are so few cities willing to bid.

What I'd like to see the IOC do is to break up the Summer Games into Spring, Summer, and Autumn Games. The Spring Games would be dedicated to indoor sports, which are customarily practiced over the winter. The Summer Games would focus on water sports...after all, you go swimming when the water is reasonably warm. And the Autumn Games would focus on outdoor sports, as the climax to a season of practice and competition. Such an arrangement would cut each Games to about 10,000 people. This would afford room to grow.
Sorry, but here I disagree…to get the Games in your country and especially in your city is amazing and the coffers bulge at the seams holding in the money that the tourists and athletes generate…The bidding wars for a Games is legendary in the amount of supposed graft and bribery it entails and that furor is so that they, the city and/or country, can host them…It means money from the IOC, from government to build new centers and fix the old, jobs for the years it takes to construct and the usage of it for local peoples for years afterwards—we had the Pan Am Games in nearby Winnipeg in 1967 for which they built an Olympic swimming pool that is still in use today…The taxes collected will nearly pay for that city’s portion of the expenses as most money will come from the Federal Gov. and local contributions…

It is a nice dream but it will never work—“I will plan my outing for one destination every four years not a different one every year or three in one year” will be the first complaint that you’d hear from the population who goes to these things, excluding family! Why not have all the games indoors—that can be of course—no worries about weather, level playing field for all competitors and you can have the summer games in Winter as well…Look what China did with wind surfing, built an indoor wind controlled pond and of course kayaking is a total man made environment…Swimming and diving, gymnastics, track & field, running would all prefer to be indoors…

Bowling pins have a Nationals, Cowboy have a few Nationals, NMLRA the same, even Fast Draw…IPSC, IDPA are in a situation that they are the governing body as they started the damn thing…if another country want to join in the games, translate the rules to their language but it’s still the original rules…Let the US add members from other countries to help out, I mean how hard is it to have a conference call—video even?

Who started the IOC? England, France and a couple of other countries and the original “New” Olympics were only between those European countries and it wasn’t until much later that “other” countries came to participate in the games…How big was the roster of countries at the 1934 games held in Nazi German…

I could probably see a totally virtual reality environment where the contestants don their virtual suits of multi dots and compete in a digital world—simulcast of course—from the comfort of their own living room and we use Pay-per-view to watch the games on our 120” wide screen TVs…

I remember seeing a shooting event—once on TV--that had a pie shaped area vertical from the trap that shot a clay straight up and you had you bust them in the three different section of this pie to score points…never heard of it again. We have to come up with new and improved shooting games so that we can be fresh and clean smelling as well…
There is a certain type of mentality that thinks if you make certain inanimate objects illegal their criminal misuse will disappear!

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slowpoke
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Re: Future Olympic Shooting Events (USPSA, IPSC)

Post by slowpoke »

Lets shoot a bit lower so to speak. There is talk of Chicago getting the 2016 games. If they do; why not try to get IPSC unlimited added as a exhibition sport? It won't have nearly the headaches. And it is a beginning step to getting it into the Olympics.
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Re: Future Olympic Shooting Events (USPSA, IPSC)

Post by mekender »

slowpoke wrote:Lets shoot a bit lower so to speak. There is talk of Chicago getting the 2016 games. If they do; why not try to get IPSC unlimited added as a exhibition sport? It won't have nearly the headaches. And it is a beginning step to getting it into the Olympics.
i wonder if Chicago will have gotten its gun ban overturned by then?
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Windy Wilson
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Re: Future Olympic Shooting Events (USPSA, IPSC)

Post by Windy Wilson »

SoupOrMan wrote:I always get disappointed when I see advertisements for biathlons in our local running club's newsletter. It's always "5 mile run / 20 mile bicycle" or some other non-shooting silliness.
Ignoramuses (ignorami?) -- That's Duathlon. Intentionally named so as to not confuse their sport with the nasty one involving guns.
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