The Gun Counter

12 people are dead and 59 others were injured (count as of 11:31PST) in the Aurora CO movie theater showing.

Our discussion on the general shooting and political fallout appears to be going on here. With mod approval, I'll open this thread on tactics.

Known at this time regarding tactics, subject to revision: he had on him an AR-15, a shotgun, and a .40 caliber handgun. He wore a ballistics vest and was wearing a gas mask. He initiated the event by throwing a canister into the theater, which appears to be a legitimate or improvised tear gas canister. The shooter then raised a shotgun and began emptying rounds into the back of the theater.

He then pulled the rifle from his back and at this time witnesses believe he emptied the 30 round magazine into the crowded theater.

That's all the information I can find related to tactics at this time. Revisions are welcome. I want to open the discussion as to what your average person could do in this or a similar circumstance. What should you do to stop this or a similar attack if you CCW? What should you do if you are not carrying?

I really believe you're overthinking this. What tactics do you use when someone is shooting at you, period? You should already have an idea, and that should be enough.

Greg wrote:I really believe you're overthinking this. What tactics do you use when someone is shooting at you, period? You should already have an idea, and that should be enough.

I appreciate your input, and respectfully disagree.

Do you train for, or even think about, someone firing on you for 50+ rounds without ever pausing to reload, in the dark, the shooter on the move wearing body armor, while you're packed into a crowded room with 150 panicked people?

I do not.

workinwifdakids wrote:

Greg wrote:I really believe you're overthinking this. What tactics do you use when someone is shooting at you, period? You should already have an idea, and that should be enough.

I appreciate your input, and respectfully disagree.

Do you train for, or even think about, someone firing on you for 50+ rounds without ever pausing to reload, in the dark, the shooter on the move wearing body armor, while you're packed into a crowded room with 150 panicked people?

I do not.

"But this forest is DIFFERENT, the trees aren't in the same places". It's still a forest.

Every time one of these things happens we have discussions (and people should at least be doing thought exercises) about what you should do if someone just starts shooting. And every single one of those discussions (and thought exercises) applies. The principles are the same.

I actually have given some consideration on what I would do in a situation like this. The best I could come up with, armed or not, is to get low and get the hell out. In this specific situation if you try to take action against the shooter you have:

Known quantities
Outgunned
Limited visibility - Dark theater with smoke and/or incapacitating agent
General panic of the other theater patrons

Uncertain quantities
Shooter wearing body armor
Shooter acting alone

Attempting to engage the shooter with a carry weapon at any distance greater than a few feet poses to much risk of hitting other theater patrons. If in the general melee I find that the shooter has passed me by I would give consideration to engaging the shooter from behind.

...and I'd be wishing for something other than a belly gun in my hand. These active shooter scenarios seem to call for a bit more marksmanship and ranges.

I would say this is a situation where an accurate pistol with a red dot sight would come into its own, due to the need for a head shot on an armored opponent. When I first heard of this, my initial thought was much as Blackeagle said. My P3AT just wouldn't cut it.

Chris, any guesstimate as to how much will having trauma plates reduce the incapacitation from center mass pistol hits? Either way it seems like a BF caliber would be better than a smaller one. As well as something with a fairly high capacity.

[edit to add the word "pistol"]

It would seem that in such a situation, as others have said, getting close in rapidly would be the best approach. Also, with a gas mask on, his own peripheral vision would be affected, so perhaps a quick approach from the side, if that's possible from where you're sitting.

If he had quality plates, I doubt pistol fire would do much to dissuade him, except for the noise and shock of someone returning fire. I highly doubt that he had plates. For an attack like that, he really wouldn't need them, unless he was planning on taking on the police afterwards.

If he was fully armored, all I can say is 3 words: "Pelvic girdle shots".

I'm seeing a lot of references to how he was "calmly shooting people." I'm not sure how you can look "calm" behind a gas mask, unless they're just talking about his posture. In fact, if he was wearing a gas mask, that would really make him more vulnerable to a counter-attack. Your peripheral vision is lousy, you can't see your gun sights, and you can hear your own breathing very loudly. CS gas, if that's what it was, is not really that bad, even inside a room. Narrow your eyes to slits, and breathe slowly in through your nose and out through your mouth. Don't take deep breaths.