Cops kill CHL holder

[Fill]

Captain Neville says 911 calls will prove otherwise. "I could clearly hear the officers giving commands to the individual to get him on the ground," he said. "You could hear people yelling and screaming in the background. You could hear the shots being fired." "When you listen to that, it definitely sends a chill down your spine," Capt. Neville said.

plural.

EDIT - found in NPR's foxnews link above...

The inquest process has been heavily criticized by local advocates, including the ACLU, because only once in its 34-year history has an inquest jury not found an officer's actions justified or excusable.

[308Mike]

BAD, BAD, coordination - and they had time to discuss how they were going to handle it BEFORE the confrontation. They were already staged at the door entrance, ONE officer takes control of the suspect while the others cover him.

I can already see this being discussed at the academy regarding how bad things can go when there's more than one person giving commands and the suspect doesn't know who to obey (particularly if they're conflicting commands).

Suspects can also experience tunnel vision and focusing just like cops do, and when that happens and he's obeying the wrong officer, they might take that as an aggressive movement and open fire - when all he was trying to do was follow the commands he could hear.

It's still a real shitty deal, all the way around. A REAL tragedy.

[workinwifdakids]

I've been held at gunpoint by law enforcement twice. The second time there was a deputy in front of me and another behind me, guns drawn. Both were less than six feet from me.

Here's the scary part: they were both screaming their heads off, and I all I could hear was what sounded like dogs barking.

I have no recollection of what they said and no idea what they did or what I did. Complete tunnel vision, hearing gone, time speeding up and slowing down. Wild stuff.

[308Mike]

I've been held at gunpoint by law enforcement twice. The second time there was a deputy in front of me and another behind me, guns drawn. Both were less than six feet from me.

Here's the scary part: they were both screaming their heads off, and I all I could hear was what sounded like dogs barking.

I have no recollection of what they said and no idea what they did or what I did. Complete tunnel vision, hearing gone, time speeding up and slowing down. Wild stuff.

Which is EXACTLY why if you're not sure of what to do, do NOTHING while keeping your hands clear and empty. FREEZE is something they know and understand, they also know and understand not everyone speaks English, can understand their screamed commands and also know that if you make no movements at all, you're not a threat to them. When they stop screaming and can hear you, you can ask them to have only ONE officer give you commands (and it's REALLY sad that a department of that size can't seem to get their officers to coordinate their approach to a reported "armed man" in a fashion to take him down safely and in control).

Hell, they *might* have even considered waiting for them to exit the store and take him down in the parking lot or even perform a "hot stop" on his car. However, NONE of us were there, NONE of us saw what was happening, NONE of us heard what was said and/or who said it, but we ALL know we wish things had been handled differently - unfortunately, they weren't. And for that, ALL those involved have my sympathies, ESPECIALLY those who loved and were in love with Erik Scott - by all accounts an OUTSTANDING individual who had a LOT of things going on in his life and a LOT to look forward to in a positive manner - I CERTAINLY do NOT view this as a "suicide-by-cop" incident even though you can NEVER predict these kinds of things. He had FARRRRRRRrrrrrrr too much to live for and he apparently had a GREAT attitude towards the future and his life in general.

As I've said before, it's a shitty deal all the way around.

I know if I was one of the officers involved and had my gun drawn and one of the other officers screamed "GUN!" and followed with shouts to: "drop it!", "put it down!", "get on the ground!", "freeze - police!" and then heard a shot or two, I can certainly understand why I might be inclined to eliminate the threat to my partners also.

This is why I can understand and feel for ALL sides in this shooting incident, and why I'm glad I was never involved in such a situation as I'm sure it would haunt me until the day I died even when they ruled in our favor - but that would NEVER eliminate the nightmares, the second-guessing, the civil lawsuits, the replaying of the shooting OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER to the point where you get SICK of hearing certain words and tones of voice giving commands. Yes, it CAN drive you into early retirement even if the shooting was FULLY justified. NOBODY can escape their conscious and for some it can become too much to take, they eat their barrel (even if they were proven LEGALLY right - but can't escape their morality) or do some other self-destructive behavior hoping they might kill themselves.

I've seen it in people I know and respected, and it's not a good thing to witness the slow slide into hell when someone continually plays over and over inside their head the way they WISH things had happened, but you can't change the past and it's also why cops have one of the highest divorce rates and suicide rates of many professions.

I THANK GOD that no matter how close I came, I never had to shoot anyone of anything - and yet EACH one was completely and fully justified in my pulling the trigger, but I didn't believe it was necessary, and there are several people still walking this earth because I chose to NOT squeeze that trigger (although I had a lot of pressure on it and the hammer was coming back (I carried my S&W 586 even after the dept went to semi-autos).

Once you drop that hammer, you can't take it back, not matter how much you'd like to be able to do so, you can't rewind time (or marriages). I thank God I never had to shoot anyone, or even their pets!! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!!

But for the grace of God, there are many instances if I was a few minutes earlier, or a few minutes later, or perhaps something happened to my partner and I had to cover them, or we started catching rounds from nearby apartments (up in Linda Vista, for a while we were catching rifle rounds whenever we responded to the LV Rec Center for crimes committed there and we just used patrol units - NOT SWAT), and we'd roll up in there with shotguns in our laps and handguns drawn and once in a while we'd see guys running with guns in their hands, but we're no fools and going to run into an ambush with them having RIFLES against out shotguns and handguns, so they'd get away to shoot at us another day.

This went on for a few months until we got some good intel and started taking them down during the day when they weren't ready for us.

I've already posted enough about what I think *MIGHT* have happened and some things they *MIGHT* have done better, but like I said before, I wasn't there and can only express my sincere condolences to the family's and friends involved 'cause I GUARANTEE ALL of them are suffering!

[mekender]

http://www.8newsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12816105

LAS VEGAS -- Detectives investigating an officer involved shooting at a Summerlin Costco have still not viewed surveillance video of the incident.

Officers opened fire on Erik Scott on Saturday after Costco employees said he was destroying store merchandise and had a gun. Police say Scott pointed his gun at officers before they fired their weapons, but witness statements contradict information released by investigators. Scott was a West Point graduate with a valid concealed weapons permit.

Detectives hope to view surveillance video of the incident, but have sent it for forensic examination because of a technical issue with Costco's recording equipment. It's still unclear if the incident was even captured on video or if the equipment was working properly the day of the shooting.

According to Scott's father, Erik was in the store shopping for water bottles. "He was in Costco looking for metal water bottles and tried them out to see if they would fit in the cooler he had. There was a Costco employee there with him at the time. From there forward we have a pretty good picture what happened," said William Scott.

Police have also refused to release the 911 tapes made during the incident. A coroner's inquest into the shooting has not been scheduled, but it is expected to happen sometime in September.

[308Mike]

http://www.8newsnow.com/Global/story.asp?S=12816105

Police have also refused to release the 911 tapes made during the incident. A coroner's inquest into the shooting has not been scheduled, but it is expected to happen sometime in September.

I understand not releasing the 911 tapes during the course of the investigation, but waiting until SEPTEMBER for the coroner's inquest in what has now become a VERY high-profile case is simply ridiculous. Then how long AFTER the inquest is it going to take for their findings to be made public?

Hopefully, there will be enough public pressure to get them to stop dragging their feet and hopefully put this incident on the front burner.

[308Mike]

Again this may be a press distortion, but from the tone of the interview with the guys father, as reported, I get the feeling he knows he's got the cops cold wrong.

Which doesn't surprise me by pushing the inquest back until September - they're hoping for people to start forgetting and moving on as we do. By September few people will even be interested besides those directed affected by the shooting: the officers with all their nightmares, and the family members with the loss of their loved one (I'm not equating the two, just identifying them, 'cause there's NO WAY you can equate the loss of a loved one at the hands of those who's society has invested their trust into).

The absolute sooner they come clean and divulge what they know and the evidence they have, even to the Grand Jury, is a step to not being able to cover up what happened, and if they're truthful coming forward, it'll show and most people would be willing to forgive once they put themselves into the same circumstances of how it all went down.

Could things have been handled differently? - HELL YES
Did they have enough time to formulate a plan of action? - most likely
Would it have been better to take him down INSIDE the store instead of around all those witnesses and potential stray bullet catchers? - perhaps
Do the officers wish things had gone down differently? - without a doubt
Will they release the physical evidence to be examined by an independent third party not associated with the government? - highly unlikely, but under the circumstances they'd be foolish to not allow it

If they were wrong, KNOW & ACKNOWLEDGE IT, and get into settlement negotiations while also pursuing whatever disciplinary/corrective/training deficiencies, the less it'll cost them - but NOTHING is enough to account for the loss of a loved one at the hands of those who you're SUPPOSED TO trust!!

When I think of this incident, it just breaks my heart knowing what those conscientious officers must be going through (probably wanting to eat their barrels while leaving their families behind). And the family of Erik Scott, who lost a treasured & loved family member, who are in INCREDIBLE pain are also going through INCREDIBLY painful times.

ALL these people in such pain breaks my heart, and I know if they could have avoided it, they would have - BUT WE WEREN'T THERE (and I thank God none of us witnessed such an event) - because EACH shooting is a traumatic event, and when you witness one, it'll stay with you for the REST of your life.

All I can say is: Thank GOD we can't pass down our witnessed experiences to our loved ones which we brought onto this earth, otherwise, we'd have some REALLY screwed-up kids out there - FAR worse than what we've already experienced!!!

[Aglifter]

The cynic/law school grad in me also says its to make it more believable when things get "lost"...

[skb12172]

It's still a real shitty deal, all the way around. A REAL tragedy.

No, this wasn't a tragedy. It was a CRIME.

Eye witnesses are NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate.

They why do they carry so much weight in court? Insane.

[Aglifter]

Eye witness testimony isn't admissible in some courts - uncorroborated, it has little to no value, unless its from a LEO. (Personally, I think the "special training" bit is grossly over-valued, but even then, its not used much.)