Good HD Gun(s) For Apartment

[Termite]

Many years ago(actually, 19 yrs ago on Mar 30), Mrs. Termite and I lived in an apartment after we married. My weapons of choice(those that were loaded) were M13 Smith for me, and Colt Detective Special for her. Both were loaded with Glasers. I didn't want to risk shooting into the adjoining apartment, and I don't think many goblins can take six .38 or .357 mag Glasers and keep moving.

YMMV, void where prohibited, etc.

[matthew hopkins]

skb,
Long gun is a Rem 870, loaded with #2 birdshot ... slightly smaller than #4 buck, a little less penetration, and in court I can always say, "Your Honor, it was just bird shot."

What does that last statement mean, that you didn't mean to kill the person you shot?

[Bob K]

Matthew, good sir,

Just what do you think it means?

[scipioafricanus]

Anyone know the velocity that bird shot is coming out at? I have been thinking about it more often, and I have heard debates about it. Some say nothing less than 00 buck, others say Bird could be fine because you aren't firing it at 50 ft but 5 or less. With that argument, I would tend to agree with the 5 or less. Within that distance, you are getting all those pellets in one spot, so that has to do some damage.

SA

[matthew hopkins]

Matthew, good sir,

Just what do you think it means?

I don't know what it means since I didn't write it. This is why I am asking you.

[SeekHer]

Anyone know the velocity that bird shot is coming out at? I have been thinking about it more often, and I have heard debates about it. Some say nothing less than 00 buck, others say Bird could be fine because you aren't firing it at 50 ft but 5 or less. With that argument, I would tend to agree with the 5 or less. Within that distance, you are getting all those pellets in one spot, so that has to do some damage.

SA

Gauge.....Shot Oz......Velocity fps......Drams Equivalent

12 - 2-3/4"..... 1 ......... 1180..... 2 3/4
12 - 2-3/4"..... 1 ......... 1290..... 3 1/4
12 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/8..... 1145..... 2 3/4
12 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/8..... 1200..... 3
12 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/8..... 1255 ..... 3 1/4
12 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/8..... 1300 ..... 3 1/2
12 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/4..... 1220 ..... 3 1/4
12 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/4..... 1330 ..... 3 3/4
12 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/2..... 1260 ..... 3 3/4
12 - 3".......... 1 3/8..... 1295 ..... 3 3/4
12 - 3".......... 1 5/8..... 1280 ..... 4
12 - 3".......... 1 7/8...... 1210 ..... 4
16 - 2-3/4"..... 1 ......... 1165 ..... 2 1/2
16 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/8..... 1185 ..... 2 3/4
16 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/8..... 1240 ..... 3
16 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/8..... 1295..... 3 1/4
16 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/4..... 1260..... 3 1/4
20 - 2-3/4"..... 7/8....... 1210 ..... 2 1/2
20 - 2-3/4"..... 1 ......... 1165 ..... 2 1/2
20 - 2-3/4"..... 1 ......... 1220 ..... 2 3/4
20 - 2-3/4"..... 1 1/8..... 1175 ..... 2 3/4
20 - 3".......... 1 3/16..... 1195 ..... 3 1/2
20 - 3".......... 1 1/4..... 1185 ..... 3

From Remington Arms Ammo section...

I've mentioned it many times in the past, it makes NO DIFFERENCE what is being shot out of the shotshell--bird, buck or slug, if it weighs the same it will have the same velocity and therefore the same recoil AS LONG AS the powder charge stays the same...

[Bob K]

Matthew,

Didn't mean to sound snide.

Probably depends on where you live, but I was advised by a lawyer friend years back that buck shot makes you look like an executioner, bird shot is a lot more innocent. At 5-10 feet, the terminal effects will be pretty much the same.

[Precision]

Where I live, shooting to maim (which is anything besides shooting to kill) is potentially a crime. The theory being that if you shoot but don't shoot to kill you probably weren't really in TRUE danger as well as (and perhaps more importantly) that shooting to injure is much more likely to miss the intended target and hit someone / something else.

I have no interest in birdshot as a HD tool. A friend wanted me to shoot up a pig hide with various calibers so she could use it for an art project. Don't ask.

.22LR went through fine at 30 yds
9mm went through fine at 30 yds
.40 S&W went through fine at 30 yds
A slug went through fine at 30 yds
00 buck went through fine at 20 to 3 yds
#4 BUCK went through fine at 20 to 3 yds
#7, #5 (buffered) and #4 bird DID NOT go through at 10, 5, or 3 yds only the wad penetrated

All shot shells were 12 GA, 2 3/4 length from an 18" open choke 870 Remington Express

The bird shot did make very cool "injuries" to the hide and about half (especially with the #7) BOUNCED off. The rest was buried in the hide. I believe what happened is the leading pellets got embedded and the following pellets bounced off the leading ones. The birdshot did make cool marks when shot at the hide from an obtuse angle. But I digress.

Nearly complete lack of penetration from 3 yards did not engender any faith in my use of ANY type of birdshot as an HD round.

YMMV

[matthew hopkins]

Matthew,

Didn't mean to sound snide.

Probably depends on where you live, but I was advised by a lawyer friend years back that buck shot makes you look like an executioner, bird shot is a lot more innocent. At 5-10 feet, the terminal effects will be pretty much the same.

Bob K,

I would question whether the lawyer knew what he was talking about. In spite of the admonition to get a lawyer before talking to the police if you get involved in a defensive shooting, many lawyers don't know anything about the laws of self defense, and may not know as much as an informed citizen.

Saying, “Your honor, I just shot them with bird shot, “ is tantamount to saying that you did not feel justified in using lethal force so you toned it down. Birdshot is indeed lethal force. If you did not feel justified in using lethal force and used bridshot, it could be seen as an admission that under the laws governing use of deadly physical force that you did not feel threatened enough to use deadly physical force and were thuse not justified in shooting.

Then you will be in the position of explaining that you caused a more serious injury or death when you didn't feel lethal force was justified. Since the only justification for using dealy phyisical force is if you felt in danger of serious physical injury or death, you are SOL because you don't have that justification.

This whole argument that this or that type of load or gun makes you look like an executioner is internet and gunstore hogwash.

Some people seem to ascribe magical qualities to a shotgun loaded with birdshot as though they can use it to shoot a criminal and be legally fine, where if they used a different firearm they would be in legal hot water.

Can anyone show me a single case in the US where someone shot someone with a firearm which was legal to own in their locale and got prosecuted for the gun used and not because of the unjustifiability of the shooting?

If the shooting is justified there is nothing about the use of a police style shotgun or hollowpoint ammo that makes it unjustified. Justifiable shootings depend on the circumstances of the shooting, not what firearm or ammo is used as long as it is legally owned and legal in the locale.

This "use a sporting shotgun with birdshot" is an outdated cliche' that comes from misstating the writing of Massad Ayoob on guns that might look bad in court. It comes from over 20 years ago when most cops were armed with revolvers with lead roundnosed ammo. Now they are armed with high capacity automatics with hollowpoints and often have an AR-15 in their car. If they have a shotgun, it is loaded with either buckshot or slugs, not birdshot. This is why it is absurd argument for a prosecutor to make a big deal about the use of a high capacity handgun, police style shotgun or buckshot or hollowpoints, because it is incredibly simple to point out that this is the ammo that most police departments use nationwide.

Here are some good sources on the use of shotguns for self defense.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

"A shotgun pellet produces wound trauma by crushing the tissue it comes into direct contact with as it penetrates. In order to produce wound trauma that will be effective in quickly stopping an attacker, the pellets must penetrate his body deeply enough to be able to pass through a vital cardiovascular structure and cause rapid fatal hemorrhage to quickly deprive the brain of oxygenated blood needed to maintain consciousness."

and:

"Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound."

I would measure the largest distance in your apartment. Personally I would not go smaller than BBs for defensive use of a shotgun, and that is assumming that I would not be shooting at a distance greater than 5-7 feet.

[308Mike]

Anyone know the velocity that bird shot is coming out at? I have been thinking about it more often, and I have heard debates about it. Some say nothing less than 00 buck, others say Bird could be fine because you aren't firing it at 50 ft but 5 or less. With that argument, I would tend to agree with the 5 or less. Within that distance, you are getting all those pellets in one spot, so that has to do some damage.

SA

I think you might like to visit the Box O' Truth, and on the second page, at the bottom, you'll find the following info about using birdshot - also, remember WHY you are shooting them:

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"