Straight swords vs. curved swords

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D5CAV
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Re: Straight swords vs. curved swords

Post by D5CAV »

toad wrote: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:21 am... During the beginning of WW I , the Germans still had cavalry armed with lances . They were sectional aluminum that were screwed together prior to combat. Then machine , guns , trenches, armored vehicles , and aircraft pretty much screwed that up.
True on the first, false on the second.

Yes, Uhlanen regiments still had lances during WW1. No, they were not sectional aluminum screwed together prior to combat.

Think about the forces involved with 1 ton of horse and rider behind a lance at 20+ MPH.

No. A sectional lance would come apart on impact.

I think that idea might come from a few surviving Uhlanen lances for sale on Ebay. The owners probably cut them into pieces and put aluminum spacers so they can be sold, shipped, reassembled and displayed.

I have an original Uhlanen lance. It is 14 feet long. Rolled tubular steel shaft with gutta-percha for the handle topped with a forged steel spear point that is about 2 feet long, including the 1+ foot section that fits over the steel shaft.

If you want to buy it, there is a price I will part with it, however, shipping is up to you.

There are 3 ways you can get your Uhlanan lance shipped:
1. Drive to the seller and strap it to the top of your pickup truck with the bright orange flag on both ends to indicate oversize load.
2. Contract with some LTL carrier that will make the pickup and drop-off with the rest of their cargo.
3. Cut it up into pieces for standard shipment via UPS or FedEx, insert aluminum threaded spacers and screw it together for display.

If you don't believe me, go to UPS or FedEx and say you want to ship a 15 foot long steel pipe about 2 inches in diameter.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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D5CAV
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Re: Straight swords vs. curved swords

Post by D5CAV »

Here's a Uhlanen soldier in WW1 with gas mask, so after 1916.

http://www.indierockmag.com/IMG/arton31 ... 1531171733

I have that lance. The little nubs on the spearpoint are grommet holes for attaching a pennant.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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D5CAV
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Re: Straight swords vs. curved swords

Post by D5CAV »

More on straight swords vs. curved swords: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03N27COiLJU

Matt Easton of Scholagladiatoria has his 7 advantages of curved swords.

1. Easier edge alignment
2. Easier follow-through; blade draws through rather than having to extract from thrust
3. Easier to draw from scabbard; rotational movement is easier for body than straight pull
4. Concentrates energy into a smaller area
5. Can thrust from extreme angles, such as parry or horseback, that are not convenient with straight blade
6. Can use like large Karambit knife, to strike from behind with sharpened back edge
7. Arch is stronger than bar, so stronger blade

Agree with 1 and 2
3 is more a function of blade length; my 40" Model 1822 French saber is still going to be a beast to draw even though it is curved
4 is a stretch
5 is making lemonade from lemons. Sure, but most thrusts are better with straight blade
6 is something I didn't think of. That's wicked and clever. It never occurred to me because those moves are illegal in sport fencing. Another limitation of sport fencing vs. combat
7 is a stretch; I think strength is more a function of other design variables
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
toad
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Re: Straight swords vs. curved swords

Post by toad »

If I remember correctly , George Patton espoused the use of the straight blade for cavalry use . He said the statistics showed more put downs with the straight sword . How he got those statistics I don't know ?
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Re: Straight swords vs. curved swords

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IMHO, the US Army Model of 1913 Cavalry Saber, AKA "The Patton Sword", is the best combat sword. Everything after that was merely a ceremonial sword.

Patton was a talented athlete, in addition to being an ardent student of history. To my knowledge, he is the only US Army general officer who ever competed in the Olympics - he was a the US contestant for the pentathlon in the 1912 Olympic games. One of the sports of the pentathlon is fencing, and Patton was an expert fencer.

Here Patton may have suffered from my own prejudice on straight swords vs. curved swords. He fenced foil and epee, which are thrusting weapons. However, it wasn't just Patton. The fashion was changing from slashing swords to thrusting swords throughout Armies in Europe and the US starting in the 1890s. The thinking was a slashing sword wounds, but a thrusting sword kills. A thrusting sword does this by deep penetrations into major organs, leading to organ failure and death.

As Matt Easton explains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbWo-2luhDw

Matt highlights the Swedish Model 1893 sword, as one of the first of these primarily thrusting swords.

For some reason, Matt ignores the Spanish Model 1907, which is also primarily a thrusting sword. Patton knew about the 1907 as well, and many of it's design elements found it's way into the US Army Model 1913.

The British took the thrusting sword concept to the extreme with the Model 1908, which doesn't even have a blade; it is purely an estoc.

The US Army Model 1913 has the blade of the Swedish 1893 with the grip and guard of the Spanish 1907, and the length of the Spanish 1907. It is a good sword. Ugly, but functional.

Once swords were no longer expected to be used in combat, the US Army went back to the US Army Model 1902 saber, which is a pretty, but more-or-less useless sword. It is a curved sword. It is a ceremonial badge of rank. I had one, but I gave it to one of my nieces.

I have a Spanish Model 1907. I don't yet have a US Army Model 1913. The ones I've seen are either too expensive or too beaten.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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