Tank is not dead

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BDK
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by BDK »

I think it may be a money issue. I don’t know about damage control exercises, but live fire is going to be quite expensive.
BDK
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by BDK »

(I smoked a cigar with an AF intel fellow. He was a big fan of super tacanos for non-peers, as a lower cost, easier to maintain ground support vehicle.)
Langenator
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by Langenator »

Vonz90 wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 3:29 am
D5CAV wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:33 am
Langenator wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:03 pm...the emergence of fire-and-forget, man portable ATGMs makes life a whole lot more challenging for tanks. But tanks still have their place.
Trust me. Life is always challenging for tanks. Life is a lot more challenging for tanks than the video games make it look. A tank is a bullet magnet, and a tank with multiple antennas is a bigger bullet magnet.

Notwithstanding A10s/Su25s, Apaches/Hinds, PGMs or ATGMs, what makes life most challenging for tanks is other tanks.

ATGMs take time to arrive. Time to let you take evasive or retaliatory action. If you are loaded HEAT, your gunner is sending that round to the origin of the smoke trail before the missile arrives, while you are popping smoke and yelling "back, back, back" to the driver.

If you have a good armor leadership and good tank crews, the enemy tank is dead about 1 to 2 seconds after they see the muzzle flash (if they even see it), and the same is true for you on the receiving end.

And yes, tanks still have their place. As "Oddball" said, "A tank can give you a very nice edge".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgcmaqMlSXs
I saw an interview with an Iraqi armored division General from GW1. He said that in all of the air attacks preceeding the ground invasion, he lost about 10% of his vehicles. Then in 45 minutes of combat with US Army mechanized division he has lost 100% of them.

Yes, tanks have their place. The thing people don't think through is that tanks are the most protected vehicles we have, if we get rid of them we just leave less protected vehicles, that would not make for a more survivable force.

Precision guided indirect fire weapons are much less useful against armored vehicles unless you can catch them stationary (assembly area, defensive position) or arrange for them to become so (canalization + obstacles) because of the time lapse factor. Sending a 155mm round to a 10 digit grid is useless when you can't predict reliably that the target will be there when the round arrives - usually 5-10 minutes, unless you've got the gun crew holding the lanyard, waiting for the fire command over the radio. Even then, a vehicle can move a good ways while the round is in flight.
One of the nasty things (for tankers - nice for grunts) about the Javelin is it has a very small launch signature and miniscule smoke trail (especially compared to the Dragon, whose launch signature was reminiscent of a WWI dreadnaught's broadside and a smoke trail rivalling a Saturn V).

Survivability concerns were why, when I was in a Bradley unit, we were trained not to try TOW shots when the tanks were 'looking' in our direction, unless we were in full defilade (just the doghouse and launcher above cover).

I have wondered why they didn't upgrade the TOW (or design a successor) with the Javelins soft/low signature launch and fire-and-forget capabilities. Put those is a missile with the TOW's almost 4000m range and bigger warhead and that's a really nasty weapon.
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Vonz90
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by Vonz90 »

Langenator wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:56 pm
I have wondered why they didn't upgrade the TOW (or design a successor) with the Javelins soft/low signature launch and fire-and-forget capabilities. Put those is a missile with the TOW's almost 4000m range and bigger warhead and that's a really nasty weapon.
I think something like a Hellfire with an extendable mast sight would be a good combination. Allow the vehicle firing to be completely below the terrain except for the sight.
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D5CAV
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by D5CAV »

Langenator wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:56 pmSurvivability concerns were why, when I was in a Bradley unit, we were trained not to try TOW shots when the tanks were 'looking' in our direction, unless we were in full defilade (just the doghouse and launcher above cover).

I have wondered why they didn't upgrade the TOW (or design a successor) with the Javelins soft/low signature launch and fire-and-forget capabilities. Put those is a missile with the TOW's almost 4000m range and bigger warhead and that's a really nasty weapon.
I always liked the TOW. They made the M2s a lot more useful.

It sounds like TOWs went through some upgrades. In the antediluvian age when I was serving, I think the range was closer to 3000m with over a 10 second TOF. Unless they made them a lot faster, 4000m also means the operator has to have balls of steel to hold on target for almost 15 seconds. That's scary when the opposing gunfighter can draw and deliver a bullet to you in under 5 seconds.

How often did you get to train with live TOW rounds? During my time, the US Army was often "pennywise and pound foolish", with training budgets. I remember once we were supposed to do Table 1 or Table 2, but some REMF ran out of budget for fuel. We did crew drills in the motor pool instead. Yeah, waste of 50 men and $50 million in equipment because of a few thousand dollars worth of fuel.

Like I said on another thread, Javelins are after my time, so I have no experience with them. I heard they are "fire and forget" so no need to hold on target like the TOW, and that they pop-up at terminal to hit from the top, which is worse for the tank. I wonder if popping WP and backing out of the hot smoke cloud will defeat their guidance system?
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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randy
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by randy »

D5CAV wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:56 am I wonder if popping WP and backing out of the hot smoke cloud will defeat their guidance system?
With the advertised low signature launch would you even know it was coming?

Of course, once the first guy gets hit, that might be a clue for the rest to start the Willie Pete.
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
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D5CAV
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Re: Tank is not dead

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randy wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:24 am With the advertised low signature launch would you even know it was coming?
If we are not expecting contact and are traveling with open hatches, maybe. TC and loader should both be scanning around. Think about hunting. Sometimes you see a small movement that turns out to be a deer, or sometimes not. Like I said, Javelins are after my time, so I have no experience with them.

If we are going into known engagement with closed hatches (looking through prisms), or hatch down (hatch down for overhead cover, but cracked about 3" for your eyeballs), probably not. Even for a "Smokey Joe" old Sagger. Situational awareness is about 10% to 20% of open-hatch.

But that is combat. Sometimes that magic bullet with your name on it comes right between your eyes through that 3" of cracked-hatch. You don't see that coming either.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Langenator
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by Langenator »

When I was in a mech infantry unit (1997-2000), the listed range for the TOW was 3,750m. And the then-current IIB model actually was made to attack the top armor of tanks. It didn't do the pop-up maneuver that the Jav does, but the shaped charge warheads were positioned to detonate downward as the guidance system flew the missile over the top of the tank (some set distance above the gunners point of aim).

In 3 years in that unit, we got to live fire TOWs once, and I didn't get to participate. I was a company XO by that point, and they only had enough missiles for the line platoons.

The main reason I suggested upgrading the TOW is that it would easy to fit in the launch systems on existing vehicles, especially the Brad and the Stryker ATGM vehicle. The Hellfire is slightly larger in diameter, and almost 16 inches longer than the TOW. The Hellfire also weighs a bit more than twice as much as the TOW. (Although I do recall, in the old Twilight: 2000 game, they had a version of the Brad that carried Hellfire(s). Not sure if they thought out the ergonomics of trying to reload the launcher through the partially open troop compartment roof hatch though. It was quite a challenge with a TOW. I'd imagine it to be much moreso with a longer, heavier missile.)

And yes, the Jav is full fire and forget. Lock on target, fire, and scoot. Missile does the rest. And the launch unit (CLU) can be quite handy on it's own, just as a thermal observation scope. Kind of like how we used to use the Dragon sights in the range tower during night gunnery, except the batteries last much longer than the bottles for the Dragon.
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D5CAV
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by D5CAV »

Langenator wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:12 amIn 3 years in that unit, we got to live fire TOWs once, and I didn't get to participate. I was a company XO by that point, and they only had enough missiles for the line platoons.
Thanks!

I'm glad your boys didn't have to go into combat as virgins. As Henry VIII famously said, "every boy has his first time".
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Langenator
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by Langenator »

There were TOW shots as part of the UCOFT simulator training we had to do before each gunnery rotation. And the pixel targets actually moved. As opposed to the hulk of what used to be (I think) and M47, sitting on top of a hill, skylined, on the Table XII range at Graf.
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