Tank is not dead

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D5CAV
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Tank is not dead

Post by D5CAV »

Chieftain on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI7T650RTT8

There's a lot of chatter on how ATGMs are the end of tanks. Chieftain makes some good arguments.

Some really good points:

1. Don't forget the arming switch and little buttons for those smoke grenades. We trained with those way too little.
2. Tanks are part of combined arms. If you send in tanks alone, you deserve to get them killed.

Some things that make me feel old:

1. He talks about M1A1 and Leopard2a4 as "legacy tanks". I guess that makes me a "legacy tanker".
2. Chieftain had my job about 10 years after me, and he looks old. I must be really old.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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blackeagle603
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by blackeagle603 »

Combined arms -- now more than ever. Without effective use of that tanks be toast. But that's been true for 100 years.
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Vonz90
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by Vonz90 »

blackeagle603 wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:26 pm Combined arms -- now more than ever. Without effective use of that tanks be toast. But that's been true for 100 years.
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Langenator
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by Langenator »

I think a lot of the Russians' problems with being able to execute good combined arms tactics is that combined arms requires good NCOs, which they simply don't have. The Infantry, probably more than any other branch, requires good NCOs to execute properly. A platoon leader simply cannot control a 30 man Infantry platoon without competent squad and team leaders.

Likewise, using indirect fires and air support in anything other than pre-planned fire and bombing roles requires competent NCOs (or at least, well trained and experienced junior enlisted - when I was a PL, by platoon FO was a senior E-4 13F with 3 years experience. Did a bang up job.) to call for and direct the fires.

Yes, the emergence of fire-and-forget, man portable ATGMs makes life a whole lot more challenging for tanks. But tanks still have their place.
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BDK
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by BDK »

Is the Russian navy also conscript based?

I think it may be an issue of high capital assets may have to be reimagined to be easily upgraded to keep up with tech.

(From the civilian perspective Our procurement system is jacked. Our whole purchasing model is jacked, but maybe less than anyone else.)
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Vonz90
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by Vonz90 »

BDK wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:32 pm Is the Russian navy also conscript based?

I think it may be an issue of high capital assets may have to be reimagined to be easily upgraded to keep up with tech.

(From the civilian perspective Our procurement system is jacked. Our whole purchasing model is jacked, but maybe less than anyone else.)
Yes, in fact officers even have to do basic maintenance in the Russian navy because the conscripts are not there long enough to learn how.
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blackeagle603
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by blackeagle603 »

No Navy drills damage control like the USN. Not even the British.

See also HMS Sheffield. Compare damage and results with Samuel B Roberts for some idea about the respective crew's DC readiness.
"The Guncounter: More fun than a barrel of tattooed knife-fighting chain-smoking monkey butlers with drinking problems and excessive gambling debts!"

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic;" Justice Story
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D5CAV
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by D5CAV »

Langenator wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:03 pm...the emergence of fire-and-forget, man portable ATGMs makes life a whole lot more challenging for tanks. But tanks still have their place.
Trust me. Life is always challenging for tanks. Life is a lot more challenging for tanks than the video games make it look. A tank is a bullet magnet, and a tank with multiple antennas is a bigger bullet magnet.

Notwithstanding A10s/Su25s, Apaches/Hinds, PGMs or ATGMs, what makes life most challenging for tanks is other tanks.

ATGMs take time to arrive. Time to let you take evasive or retaliatory action. If you are loaded HEAT, your gunner is sending that round to the origin of the smoke trail before the missile arrives, while you are popping smoke and yelling "back, back, back" to the driver.

If you have a good armor leadership and good tank crews, the enemy tank is dead about 1 to 2 seconds after they see the muzzle flash (if they even see it), and the same is true for you on the receiving end.

And yes, tanks still have their place. As "Oddball" said, "A tank can give you a very nice edge".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgcmaqMlSXs
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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Vonz90
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by Vonz90 »

D5CAV wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 1:33 am
Langenator wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:03 pm...the emergence of fire-and-forget, man portable ATGMs makes life a whole lot more challenging for tanks. But tanks still have their place.
Trust me. Life is always challenging for tanks. Life is a lot more challenging for tanks than the video games make it look. A tank is a bullet magnet, and a tank with multiple antennas is a bigger bullet magnet.

Notwithstanding A10s/Su25s, Apaches/Hinds, PGMs or ATGMs, what makes life most challenging for tanks is other tanks.

ATGMs take time to arrive. Time to let you take evasive or retaliatory action. If you are loaded HEAT, your gunner is sending that round to the origin of the smoke trail before the missile arrives, while you are popping smoke and yelling "back, back, back" to the driver.

If you have a good armor leadership and good tank crews, the enemy tank is dead about 1 to 2 seconds after they see the muzzle flash (if they even see it), and the same is true for you on the receiving end.

And yes, tanks still have their place. As "Oddball" said, "A tank can give you a very nice edge".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgcmaqMlSXs
I saw an interview with an Iraqi armored division General from GW1. He said that in all of the air attacks preceeding the ground invasion, he lost about 10% of his vehicles. Then in 45 minutes of combat with US Army mechanized division he has lost 100% of them.

Yes, tanks have their place. The thing people don't think through is that tanks are the most protected vehicles we have, if we get rid of them we just leave less protected vehicles, that would not make for a more survivable force.
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Netpackrat
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Re: Tank is not dead

Post by Netpackrat »

blackeagle603 wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:34 pm No Navy drills damage control like the USN. Not even the British.

See also HMS Sheffield. Compare damage and results with Samuel B Roberts for some idea about the respective crew's DC readiness.
I'd imagine there are some true believers in the JMSDF. Having had the shit bombed out of them by the USN, the core of personnel who originally formed that organization could be expected to have passed some of those lessons down to those who followed them.
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