Japan unveils new carrier-like warship, largest since WWII

[Steamforger]

Steam catapults ain't happening. Not in the ship in the picture anyway. Maybe some hull numbers further down the line...if we let them. Adding in the boilers, piping, shuttles, tracks, ram, and water brakes... It ain't happening. Ever. All of that adds up to a MASSIVE system. It would be cheaper and easier to build a new ship around a steam catapult than to try to retrofit this one. I'd say the odds are a little better than getting the Yamato space ready, but not much.

Much more likely are Harriers and F-35s appearing in copious numbers along with lots and lots of Gen IV MANPADS for the army.

ETA- Fucks sake. Its barely 30,000 tons loaded for war. Steam cats and associated equipment would probably sink it.

[Aesop]

Which is curious, since Izumo is 8 feet wider and only 24 ft. shorter overall than LHA-6 America which somehow manages to displace an additional 15,000 tons. (44,000 vs. 29,000).
I know the average JMSDF sailor is smaller than the American corn-fed counterpart, but unless we're shipping lead by the conex box belowdecks, or they've invented transparent aluminum courtesy of Mister Scott, there's another 16,000 tons or so of displacement capacity they either aren't talking about, or aren't using, which is 50% of the currently-stated displacement of the entire "destroyer".

Tell me again how much all the associated launching and arresting gear weighs?

You're also assuming that they didn't build any of the necessary infrastructure and equipment into the hull at the yard, and would have to put everything in from scratch. That's a lot of assuming regarding somebody else's man-of-war.

[mekender]

Which is curious, since Izumo is 8 feet wider and only 24 ft. shorter overall than LHA-6 America which somehow manages to displace an additional 15,000 tons. (44,000 vs. 29,000).
I know the average JMSDF sailor is smaller than the American corn-fed counterpart, but unless we're shipping lead by the conex box belowdecks, or they've invented transparent aluminum courtesy of Mister Scott, there's another 16,000 tons or so of displacement capacity they either aren't talking about, or aren't using, which is 50% of the currently-stated displacement of the entire "destroyer".

Tell me again how much all the associated launching and arresting gear weighs?

You're also assuming that they didn't build any of the necessary infrastructure and equipment into the hull at the yard, and would have to put everything in from scratch. That's a lot of assuming regarding somebody else's man-of-war.

Thing is, if you look at other ships in the LHD class of ships around the world, this new ship is a larger displacement than almost all of them. The US ones and the French one are about the only ones that are heavier. But, I did wonder the same thing.

[John_in_Longview]

My favorite comment so far over at The Miniatures Page (a wargaming forum) is, "Still no wave motion gun."

That person won the internet for the day. Love that cartoon.

[Steamforger]

Which is curious, since Izumo is 8 feet wider and only 24 ft. shorter overall than LHA-6 America which somehow manages to displace an additional 15,000 tons. (44,000 vs. 29,000).
I know the average JMSDF sailor is smaller than the American corn-fed counterpart, but unless we're shipping lead by the conex box belowdecks, or they've invented transparent aluminum courtesy of Mister Scott, there's another 16,000 tons or so of displacement capacity they either aren't talking about, or aren't using, which is 50% of the currently-stated displacement of the entire "destroyer".

Tell me again how much all the associated launching and arresting gear weighs?

You're also assuming that they didn't build any of the necessary infrastructure and equipment into the hull at the yard, and would have to put everything in from scratch. That's a lot of assuming regarding somebody else's man-of-war.

I don't have much time right now, but associated equipment would likely be 2-3 1200 psi boilers, deaereating feed tanks, chemical injectors, forced draft blowers, air ejectors, condensers, at least 2 evaps...more like 3, feed water return systems hooked up to the condensers, seawater intakes, shuttles, tracks, steamdrum, water brakes, that cute little control center in the flight deck, steam piping and condensate return up to and back from the flight deck, move the entire foc'sle, to somewhere else, arresting gear (it's own set of issues), and, as blackeagle said, and angled deck to make any of this worthwhile.

If they built that ship with all this stuff ready to be crammed in, good on them. Nothing in that list is trivial.

Source: Machinist Mate.

[skb12172]

I now think LHD with Marines is most likely. As previously stated, air force can be sent from/supported by the Home Islands without carriers already, thanks to modern jets.

[Aesop]

How did that theory of land-based air power projection work against seaborne carrier forces in, say, the Falklands?

Japan needs ASW forces, because about 90% of everything they need gets shipped in, including 100% of their oil.

But that argues for multiple smaller ships, not just one big one.
No one can draw conclusions based on one data point, but the fact that they're building a larger and more capable "helicopter destroyer" points to both greater ambitions and greater capabilities, far beyond mere local patrols.
They didn't plan this thing and lay the keel last month, this has been in the works for a decade.
So despite whatever cock and bull story they've spent a decade concocting, this thing is, at minimum, an LHA, and as big or bigger than any ship in most other navies' inventory, including every country in the Pacific except China, Russia, and us.

We're mothballing carriers and contracting our carrier groups, and they're launching one.
Nature abhors a vacuum.

[blackeagle603]

Argentina... airpower...
Falklands Britain Carrier Air Defense
That was a scrum outside a bar by two drunk ROTC candidates who both knew a guy who served in Viet Nam.

Seriously, pick a scenario for comparison that's at least apples and oranges to the one under consideration.

Start with understanding AEW and Japan's capability there.
ASW is a worthy subject. however if we're talking anything but attack subs it's nothing but unicorns farting rainbows. Airborne and Surface ASW died nearly 30 years ago as an effective ASW tool.

[Aesop]

Fire at will.
Name the scenario where carriers have failed against land-based airpower.
(Midway was overwhelmingly carrier v. carrier.) Almost all the other exemplars are us vs. anybody, and to my recollection, no one's sunk a carrier (ours or anyone else's) since the 1940s. And the last bunch to sink one of ours was (wait for it) the Japanese Navy.
So as much as it's all apples and oranges, the one constant is that unless you're a total cluster-f*** at it, the side projecting power against a land-based force gets the tactical advantages of surprise, mass, and co-ordination time after time. But again, that's mostly the residue of the carrier force usually being us. Japan, however, is not entirely helpless nor a bunch of novices at running naval air.

As for ASW, we seem to continue to spend a tidy sum on the failed concept, and don't forget the potential OpFor for any Japanese activities. Everybody isn't running an Ohio, Seawolf or an improved Los Angeles class sub, and the JMSDF has been tracking the best Soviet subs right alongside us for 50+ years. (And helpfully, with rather personal memories of what happens when you fail).
I haven't looked up AEW lately, but IIRC, Japan runs their upgraded version of E-3s (with proprietary software even we don't get from them - licensed tech seem to only flow one way where Japan is concerned) and has no shipboard deployed platform comparable to an E-2. They also run (or will soon) about 80 dual- or triple-purpose jet land-based ASW/AEW/C&C birds.
That covers the home islands and approaches, and pretty thoroughly, which once again highlights the change of deploying a ship that can be deployed far beyond the normal operating radius of land-based aircraft, with whatever airframes they elect to operate. Using an AEW bird to coordinate helos doesn't seem sensible unless it's in the context of an amphibious landing. Detecting inbounds at 300NM travelling at 2x-4x that speed, and then trying to intercept with rotary wings is something that only works in bad comic books. They might as well deploy zeppelins.

Our naval theoreticians have talked about sending out ASW carriers, but without the dozen complementary carrier battle groups we have and Japan doesn't, this new ship only works for them a few ways: as shotgun for a convoy (or something like shepherding Persian Gulf tanker transits), or heading out to its chosen target as a predatory home base, whether as an LHA now, or a stealth CV/VSTOL CV someday or in a pinch.
Sailing it around otherwise, as strictly helos v. shore-based airplanes, just makes it a big target, unless they have plans to put jets on it (or a companion ship) at some point. Or if, like 90% of the Pacific, the potential land-based air force they'd face is mainly for parades and air shows.
So once again, China, Russia, and us have nothing to worry about, but 50 other nations should be getting nervous.

It comes down to how stupid or smart the JMSDF really are, and based on past performance, I'm betting the over.

[workinwifdakids]

Or we could look at a nation-state using traditional large-scale assets asymmetrically...