Norks

[Dinochrome]

Targets on the west coast could be Seattle in Puget Sound, San Francisco between the bridges, Long Beach inside the breakwater, and San Diego under the Alameda bridge.

I'm assuming you meant the Coronado Bay Bridge? Alameda is up at San Fran.

Yeah, you're right. I meant that big curvy bridge in San Diego Bay. A bomb there would wipe out Coronado, North Island, Naval Station San Diego, and the down-town area. I haven't been back to Alameda since they closed the Naval Air Station.

[randy]

The real worry is the dug-in artillery points the NORKS have facing Seoul. They could do severe damage to the city before our B-52s and B-2s could take them out.

BUFFs and Spirits are not going to do shit against those ADITs. Not even with nukes. That is going to require dedicated counterbattery fire with LOTS of ammo (and that will only be effective, as they occasionally get lucky in catching a piece and it's crew in the open. Suppression, not destruction) or infantry to clear out those things one at a time until all the ones in range of Seoul are clean.

Trust me guys, this is one target set where air power is not the answer. But (like bombing runways as a long term resolution) it keeps coming up from the amateurs.

I remember one Navy Lt Commander all excited over reports of the effectiveness of the BLU-82 Daisy Cutter in DESERT STORM (against unfortified troop positions in the open desert with no effective air defenses). He wanted to use them against the NK artillery positions in range of Seoul (super hardened redundant heavily camouflaged facilities in mountainous terrain with dense and deadly air defenses).

My official reply (somewhat edited by my bosses to "Hell No!") was that I wanted to be in the room when he briefed the SpecOps aircrews that they were going to be flying their Hercs straight and level at several thousand feet AGL for a couple minutes just North of the DMZ during wartime. IF he lived long enough to leave the room, we MIGHT consider it. Oh, and I wanted to know if his rank was KGB or GRU?

[rightisright]

Oh, I trust you, Randy. This is your stuff. But are you saying even small tactical nukes aren't enough to blast out those hillside positions?

[randy]

One at a time, probably (and some of the ones I've seen, you'd have to be damned precise as to placement). But how many are you willing to use that close to friendly territory? They'd have to be ground bursts, so you really want to make sure the wind isn't from the North that day.

And, if they use only conventional shells (i.e. not WMD), well current doctrine makes it really hard to ask for, let alone get release for, a nuke strike. And you'd have to ask for one for each target. And maybe you close that ADIT, but the piece assigned to it pops up at one of it's alternates.

These are not typical "hillside artillery positions".

Think Atlantic Wall carved out of living rock with multiple ADITs for each piece, tunnels connecting them, DEEP ammunition storage rooms, and 40+ years in planning and constructing them to stand up to anything including nuke strikes.

In fact think more Guns of Navarone, replicated over and over again along the front. Only these guns don't sit there with their snouts out waiting for counterbattery or airstrikes.

[PawPaw]

At least the Koreans have whiskey, beer and women, which makes it three times better than the shitholistans we've been fighting in. Plus, the added attraction of being able to shoot real commies!

General Order One would die the death that it so richly deserves. There is no legitimate military requirement that says when a trooper is off duty, he can't have a beer or carouse with the wimmen. General orders forbidding such conduct are simply politically oriented bullshit, and any decent officer worth his salt would be immediately outraged at such an order. If the locals don't like it, tell them to fuck off, we weren't invited into your shithole country, we fought our way in, and if you choose to complain, we'll set up breweries and make your women work the breweries during the day and the barracks at night.

We've got to get over the idea that we're nation-building. Armies don't nation-build, armies conquer.

Think Atlantic Wall carved out of living rock with multiple ADITs for each piece, tunnels connecting them, DEEP ammunition storage rooms, and 40+ years in planning and constructing them to stand up to anything including nuke strikes.

So, they can't maneuver. Fixed fortifications always fall. That's the folly of all fortification builders since time immemorial. Maneuver wins.

[308Mike]

Targets on the west coast could be Seattle in Puget Sound, San Francisco between the bridges, Long Beach inside the breakwater, and San Diego under the Alameda bridge.

I'm assuming you meant the Coronado Bay Bridge? Alameda is up at San Fran.

Yeah, you're right. I meant that big curvy bridge in San Diego Bay. A bomb there would wipe out Coronado, North Island, Naval Station San Diego, and the down-town area. I haven't been back to Alameda since they closed the Naval Air Station.

That's okay, I kinda' figured that's what you meant, and yes, a nuke under that bridge would create a LOT of problems - of course depending on the power of the nuke. Taking out the bridge, wiping out downtown San Diego as well as the heart of Coronado, would create quite a mess around San Diego. All we'd need to make it worse would be a FLOOD of people coming across the border while the BP was in crisis mode dealing with the effects and down computers from the downtown-area blast.

If such an event occurred, you could be GUARANTEED there would be THOUSANDS of illegals flooding across our border while our priority assets were being deployed elsewhere. Not only would PEOPLE be flooding across the border, but drugs would be too!! In GREAT quantities!! I have NO DOUBT the cartels have LOTS of drugs stashed to go across the border int e event of something like this, and they'd simply FLOOD the border with couriers and illegals to clog up our system (even if they got caught, all the other stuff coming across would make it worth the loss of some shipments).

DO NOT THINK they haven't already thought this out, and are only waiting for something major to happen to flood our borders with all their crap (people AND DRUGS). One masks or takes the heat off the other. Since we have such limited resources, when they flood our borders, LOTS of crap will get through, including terrorists, high-value targets, and other people our government is looking for.

All they're looking for now is an opportunity.

[randy]

Think Atlantic Wall carved out of living rock with multiple ADITs for each piece, tunnels connecting them, DEEP ammunition storage rooms, and 40+ years in planning and constructing them to stand up to anything including nuke strikes.

So, they can't maneuver. Fixed fortifications always fall. That's the folly of all fortification builders since time immemorial. Maneuver wins.

That's not really the issue here. The issue is can they survive long enough to destroy Seoul and it's suburbs with artillery fire, and, I'm afraid, the answer is yes.

For years, they've been the DPRK's "poor man's nuke" in that they are more a political intimidation weapon as opposed to a militarily effective one.

Now, if the ROKs can get something like the Israeli Iron Dome system into place and decrease the number of rounds impacting......

[First Shirt]

ROMEO and WHISKY-class subs are damned hard to detect when operating on batteries. But their diesel signature on sonar stands out like rat shit in a sugar bowl, and they'd have to make most of the trip on diesel (plus finding an oiler somewhere about midway to Hawaii). Last time I checked, they don't have a lot of either subs or tenders. I think it's just Kim III shooting off his mouth, but they really need some chlorine in their gene pool. I don't remember either his dad or his grand-dad being that stupid.

[esa5444]

My guess is these targets were based on North Korean estimates on what cities were most important to American society. 100% of these estimates come from trolling the internet and watching American movies. Figure they don't really have a lot of spies in our country (they'd all defect at the sight of a super market!). DC because it is the capital of America and they think that means it is important to our country. Austin because it's the capital of Texas, backdrop to our Westerns and home to George W. Bush, and Los Angeles because of Hollywood.

[slowpoke]

Norks make the war hot again. We pull all forces from Afghanistan and Iraq to concentrate as much as we can on the Korean peninsula as fast as we can. Norks get their asses handed to them in short order. In addition to any concessions Un can get from the ME for getting us out of there, he also gets to save face, go back to the status quo, and have the US flood his country with brand new infrastructure, power stations, hospitals, schools and food. I get the opportunity to spend 2-3 years, if I wish, rebuilding NORK. Un doesn't lose much that we won't or he can't replace.

Am I being overly cynical or does anybody else see it this way???

The US is just there to keep China from getting involved. The South Koreans could take the Norks out without our help, with a bit of logistic support they do it easily. I expect little Kim is trying to bluff his way into a confrontation he can lose to break free from China before they implode.