US Army looking at M4 replacement. Again.

[Sea Dawg]

Those clowns keep wasting our tax dollars trying to re-invent the wheel.

From the "Been there, done that, got the T-shirt" Department may I offer the following suggestion: Re-barrel all M-4s to M-16 length, issue M-3 submachine guns in .45 ACP goodness to those requiring a short, handy, close-in weapon (I'm kinda partial to Thompsons, but I realize that they are spendy to make and kinda heavy to hump around all day).

The M-4 is neither fish nor fowl, as it uses a marginal cartridge in a barrel too short to get what energy is available to it. Any one who wants a "sexy" weapon can buy whatever they want as long as they buy all the ammo and parts for it, unless they want an M-14, in which case the Army can provide all needed support and ammo.

[Joe ex PNG]

I was refering to the firearm design advances(or lack thereof), rather than the ammuntion advances.

It's because Browning, Kalashnikov, Stoner, and Garand (and others) got it pretty much right. There is a reason pretty much every major issue automatic rifle uses the gas driven bolt carrier with a rotating bolt. The actions might be old, but they work VERY well.

[HTRN]

Those clowns keep wasting our tax dollars trying to re-invent the wheel.

From the "Been there, done that, got the T-shirt" Department may I offer the following suggestion: Re-barrel all M-4s to M-16 length, issue M-3 submachine guns in .45 ACP goodness to those requiring a short, handy, close-in weapon (I'm kinda partial to Thompsons, but I realize that they are spendy to make and kinda heavy to hump around all day).

Change to 6.8 SPC
Change the barrell to 16" length for general issue.
For sub guns, follow the SAF model - an AR45 in a coupla versions.

Simple, cheap, easy.. and therefore never going to happen.


HTRN

[Combat Controller]

SH, the 6.8 uses a different mag unfortunately.

What we need is a new round, like a 7.62x45!

[HTRN]

What we need is a new round, like a 7.62x45!

Cough, 30 HRT, Cough.


HTRN

[Combat Controller]

Cool, I am ordering a .458 SOCOM from those guys...

[SeekHer]

You make silly little mistakes when you haven’t had much sleep since Thursday!

I thought that the 6.8 used the same metal or plastic housing as the 5.56 but with a different spring and plate to compensate for the fatter cartridges…The specs were that all were to use existing AR15/M4/M16 mags with new internals so that the same bottoms can be used and just change over the upper and barrel to accommodate whatever caliber from 6.5 up…It was even proposed that the barrels would be bored out to 6.5/6.8 with a new twist so even the barrels would be re-used…

Taken from the Teppo Jutsu LLC , home of the .458 SOCOM

Which is better, the .458 SOCOM or the .50 BeowulfTM?
This is one of those debates that neither side wins. Both cartridges are very similar, yet they are quite different. We had access to some of the information on the predecessor of the .50 BeowulfTM when we designed the .458 SOCOM. We designed it the way we did for very specific reasons. I admit I cannot be impartial, but I will give as honest a comparison of the two as I can:

Rim size – the SOCOM rim is the same as the .308 Winchester (7.62 x 51), the Beowulf rim is the same as the 7.62 x 39 M43 cartridge used in the AK-47. The B rim is easier in that you can use existing bolts for the AR. The S rim is easier in that there are hundreds of thousands of (old) bolt action rifles that use this same rim and that could be retrofitted to the SOCOM (all the old Mauser rifles ….)

Case length – as mentioned earlier, the B is 4mm longer than the S. A lot of this extra room is taken up by the body of the bullet anyway, so it does not gain you that much.

Headspace – the B uses the case mouth, the S the shoulder. There are those that feel using the shoulder offers inherent greater accuracy potential, but both rounds are capable of just about the same accuracy. Both are intended to be used at the same maximum range as well, so it really does not matter much.

Bullet selection – this is where the S has the B beat, hands down, due to large variety of .458 bullets compared to the .500. But with the advent of the .500 S&W, the B is starting to catch up.

Power – Let’s be honest. The difference between a .458" bullet and a .500" bullet is a whopping 0.042" or a hair under 3/64". If you hit anything with either, it will be hurting or dead. That 0.042" won’t matter a bit. Both have just about the same muzzle velocity so just about the same power. The B has a little more room for powder and with the slightly larger diameter bullet will edge out the S. But the S has bullets with much better BC available so it should out perform the B at distance.

Other .458 SOCOM sites:

Tromix

SSK Industries

Rock River Arm


Check out further listings of other caliber makers in this thread in Gun Talk & Tech:
AR15/M16 Rifle Makers & Dealers and in the W I K I

[Mud_Dog]

SH, the 6.8 uses a different mag unfortunately.

What we need is a new round, like a 7.62x45!

Like the Czech M52?

Do some work to "Modernize" it and we might have a winner...

[DougWojtowicz]

What... no .300 Whisper?