Turn about is fair play

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Greg
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Re: Turn about is fair play

Post by Greg »

Vonz90 wrote:This is not realistic at scale these days. However, groups like the Taliban and ISIS are not lawful combatants, have no rights under the Geneva Conventions and should be summarily executed when caught. The message needs to be that if you want the protection of the rules of war, then you need to follow the rules of war.
Unfortunately we don't really understand the rules of war any more, either.

Well aside from as a good excuse for handicapping our side from under cover of self-righteousness. Works out kind of like affirmative action for warfare.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr
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First Shirt
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Re: Turn about is fair play

Post by First Shirt »

Greg wrote:
Vonz90 wrote:This is not realistic at scale these days. However, groups like the Taliban and ISIS are not lawful combatants, have no rights under the Geneva Conventions and should be summarily executed when caught. The message needs to be that if you want the protection of the rules of war, then you need to follow the rules of war.
Unfortunately we don't really understand the rules of war any more, either.

Well aside from as a good excuse for handicapping our side from under cover of self-righteousness. Works out kind of like affirmative action for warfare.
Yeah, what he said! We haven't really understood the rules of warfare since Korea.
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randy
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Re: Turn about is fair play

Post by randy »

Yeah,what happens when the general public, the ACLU civilian judges and all too many JAGs seem to have gotten their education on the Laws of Armed Conflict by watching re-runs of Hogan's Heroes.

I got tired of having to explain to folks over and over that if the prisoners in GITMO were:

1. legitimate POWs, not only can we hold them indefinitely without trial (i.e. until the war is over or they are exchanged), but to put them on trial just for being enemy combatants is war crime in and of itself.

2.If they are not legitimate combatants, then by following the strict guidelines of the various treaties we can give them a summary court to determine their status, stand them against the nearest wall and shoot them, all within a day's work.

I especially got grumpy dealing with people with Law degrees that couldn't spell UCMJ or Geneva (and had never head of Hague) lecture me on the rule of law in combat, after having guys in my shop put their careers on the line by telling Flag Officers that no, they can't put that target on tomorrow's list because it would be a violation of the LOAC.
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
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Windy Wilson
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Re: Turn about is fair play

Post by Windy Wilson »

First Shirt wrote:
Vonz90 wrote: The message needs to be that if you want the protection of the rules of war, then you need to follow the rules of war.
That's assuming that the [multiple expletives deleted] can actually READ the rules of war, or understand them.
The rule used to be, if you want to be protected by the rule of law regarding war, then LEARN to read and understand and follow them. Until then, I'm thinking that a good deterrent would be something like the "Grave of the Hundred Head" (Which I'm too lazy to search and link to).
The use of the word "but" usually indicates that everything preceding it in a sentence is a lie.
E.g.:
"I believe in Freedom of Speech, but". . .
"I support the Second Amendment, but". . .
--Randy
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randy
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Re: Turn about is fair play

Post by randy »

...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
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Jered
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Re: Turn about is fair play

Post by Jered »

randy wrote: I got tired of having to explain to folks over and over that if the prisoners in GITMO were:

1. legitimate POWs, not only can we hold them indefinitely without trial (i.e. until the war is over or they are exchanged), but to put them on trial just for being enemy combatants is war crime in and of itself.

2.If they are not legitimate combatants, then by following the strict guidelines of the various treaties we can give them a summary court to determine their status, stand them against the nearest wall and shoot them, all within a day's work.
I've got the ICRC manuals on the law of war in PDF form here are a couple of their rules:
Rule 107. Combatants who are captured while engaged in espionage do not
have the right to prisoner-of-war status. They may not be convicted or
sentenced without previous trial.
And this:
Rule 106. Combatants must distinguish themselves from the civilian
population while they are engaged in an attack or in a military operation
preparatory to an attack. If they fail to do so, they do not have the right to
prisoner-of-war status.
Another one...
Rule 2. Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread
terror among the civilian population are prohibited.
Then there's this one:
Rule 14. Launching an attack which may be expected to cause incidental
loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a
combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete
and direct military advantage anticipated, is prohibited.
And this one:
Rule 15. In the conduct of military operations, constant care must be taken to
spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects. All feasible
precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimise, incidental
loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.
And this:
Rule 17. Each party to the conflict must take all feasible precautions in the
choice of means and methods of warfare with a view to avoiding, and in any
event to minimising, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and
damage to civilian objects.
Depending on their attack methods[e.g. a second IED that targets responders and the wounded], they've probably violated this one:
Rule 47. Attacking persons who are recognised as hors de combat is
prohibited. A person hors de combat is:
(a) anyone who is in the power of an adverse party;
(b) anyone who is defenceless because of unconsciousness, shipwreck, wounds
or sickness; or
(c) anyone who clearly expresses an intention to surrender;
provided he or she abstains from any hostile act and does not attempt to escape.
Rule 65. Killing, injuring or capturing an adversary by resort to perfidy is
prohibited.
And we can shoot their leaders, too:
Rule 153. Commanders and other superiors are criminally responsible for war
crimes committed by their subordinates if they knew, or had reason to know,
that the subordinates were about to commit or were committing such crimes
and did not take all necessary and reasonable measures in their power to
prevent their commission, or if such crimes had been committed, to punish
the persons responsible.
And there aren't any statutes of limitations on war crimes. I think its safe to say that we could put everyone in GITMO on trial, and then shoot them.
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.
Aesop
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Re: Turn about is fair play

Post by Aesop »

Terrorists are the closest equivalent on land to pirates.
A summary drumhead court martial upon initial detention, followed by field execution, should be the initial ROE when dealing with them.

Try it that way in 100% of cases for one year, and come back to me if there is anyone who still wants to play for the other team.
I will happily lobby for additional funds for ammunition for that purpose, over and above the regular military budget, in perpetuity.

The last opponent who tried having it both ways pissed us off enough that we removed two of their cities.
Both their religious fanaticism and their martial ardor cooled mightily in response, at just about the same rate of decay as radioactive isotopes in the surrounding soil.

Carthage and Hiroshima were blueprints, not aberrations.

Thus endeth the lesson. 8-)
"There are four types of homicide: felonious, accidental, justifiable, and praiseworthy." -Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
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Baja boy
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Re: Turn about is fair play

Post by Baja boy »

Aesop wrote:Terrorists are the closest equivalent on land to pirates.
A summary drumhead court martial upon initial detention, followed by field execution, should be the initial ROE when dealing with them.

Try it that way in 100% of cases for one year, and come back to me if there is anyone who still wants to play for the other team.
I will happily lobby for additional funds for ammunition for that purpose, over and above the regular military budget, in perpetuity.

The last opponent who tried having it both ways pissed us off enough that we removed two of their cities.
Both their religious fanaticism and their martial ardor cooled mightily in response, at just about the same rate of decay as radioactive isotopes in the surrounding soil.

Carthage and Hiroshima were blueprints, not aberrations.

Thus endeth the lesson. 8-)
Amen !!!!
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Greg
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Re: Turn about is fair play

Post by Greg »

Aesop wrote:Terrorists are the closest equivalent on land to pirates.
A summary drumhead court martial upon initial detention, followed by field execution, should be the initial ROE when dealing with them.

Try it that way in 100% of cases for one year, and come back to me if there is anyone who still wants to play for the other team.
I will happily lobby for additional funds for ammunition for that purpose, over and above the regular military budget, in perpetuity.

The last opponent who tried having it both ways pissed us off enough that we removed two of their cities.
Both their religious fanaticism and their martial ardor cooled mightily in response, at just about the same rate of decay as radioactive isotopes in the surrounding soil.

Carthage and Hiroshima were blueprints, not aberrations.

Thus endeth the lesson. 8-)
Simply remembering what a reprisal is, and what its purpose is, would nip things in the bud quite nicely so nothing as extreme as Can of Sunshine Behavioral Therapy would be necessary.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr
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slowpoke
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Re: Turn about is fair play

Post by slowpoke »

As much as I am loathe to correct Aesop, we removed all of Japans cities. The reason we hit Hiroshima and Nagasaki and not Tokyo and Kyoto is that we had already burned them and the rest rest to the ground.
Thus the lesson is reinforced with the correction.
"Islam delenda est" Aesop
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