Rep. Adam Smith want to CANX F35

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randy
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Re: Rep. Adam Smith want to CANX F35

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Windy Wilson wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:50 am Wasn't the F-4 Phantom one of MacNamara's bright ideas? As I understand it, it was designed with the idea that missiles were the way of the future, and machine guns and cannon were outdated, so no guns. Once it was discovered that cannon were still useful against other airplanes, a pod was mounted to the Phantom so it could shoot more than 2- 4 missiles in a dog fight.
You can't blame that one on Mac<spit>Namara. The Phantom was developed in the late 1950's and started deployment in the early 60's before he was inflicted on the DoD.

It was originally envisioned as a Navy Fleet Defense interceptor and so the missiles only requirement as it was considered bad form to allow carrier group killing Soviet bombers with nukes get in close enough to require guns.

The AF adopted it after it was in Navy service. And both services sadly learned that a long range rifle isn't as much use when you are in a "knife fight in a phone booth". Of course the restrictive ROE during most of the VN war, and the poor reliability of 1st Gen air to air missiles didn't help much.

You may be thinking of the F-111 Aardvark which came out of the Whiz Kid's obsession of only buying one type of everything for all services.
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
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Windy Wilson
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Re: Rep. Adam Smith want to CANX F35

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Yes, but he was so bad that any guilt or blame floating around unattributed could quite fairly be attributed to him.
The use of the word "but" usually indicates that everything preceding it in a sentence is a lie.
E.g.:
"I believe in Freedom of Speech, but". . .
"I support the Second Amendment, but". . .
--Randy
BDK
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Re: Rep. Adam Smith want to CANX F35

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Windy, that’s my point. My guess is, between lost economic production, education, military training, every dead GI costs us, at least 4 MM. AA dead jihadi probably costs them 400K, plus we burn a few million per dead jihadi (I think. I saw the stats - it was a remarkable#)

Plus, every dead jihadi, leads to an economic boon from Iranian/Saudi support.

We don’t seem to be coherently focused on breaking our opponents. We took away the NAZIs ability to function economically, long before we killed them all.

We took away the Soviets ability to function, without even killing many of them.

(Sorta. I think we are fighting the remnants of the Cold War in DC, now.)
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Vonz90
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Re: Rep. Adam Smith want to CANX F35

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BDK wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:40 pm Windy, that’s my point. My guess is, between lost economic production, education, military training, every dead GI costs us, at least 4 MM. AA dead jihadi probably costs them 400K, plus we burn a few million per dead jihadi (I think. I saw the stats - it was a remarkable#)

Plus, every dead jihadi, leads to an economic boon from Iranian/Saudi support.

We don’t seem to be coherently focused on breaking our opponents. We took away the NAZIs ability to function economically, long before we killed them all.

We took away the Soviets ability to function, without even killing many of them.

(Sorta. I think we are fighting the remnants of the Cold War in DC, now.)
Different war and different center of gravity. The dollars per kill can be important, especially if one side is heavily resource limited, but other times is not important at all. For COIN with an internal enemy, the center of gravity is usually the hearts and minds (AKA the will to fight) of the target population. For external COIN it is usually the sanctuary areas whenever that is.

I actually think we need to get back to a cold war mentality. COIN is not nearly as resource intensive and is not the next threat.
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randy
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Re: Rep. Adam Smith want to CANX F35

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The "dollars per dead jihadi" argument strays dangerously close to Mac<spit>Namara type of thinking. (not accusing you of that, just pointing out the edge of the slippery slope).

Had to deal with a GAO ("The Lapdogs of Congress") "researcher" once with that kind of attitude.

She was totally clueless, no military or aviation background, couldn't tell a GBU from a piece of sewer pipe. Kept focusing on how expensive a laser guide bomb was compared to dumb bombs, even if it took 20 dumb bombs to hit a target for every LGB.

She could not comprehend that sending enough aircraft to drop 20 dumb bombs increased the size of the support packages (EW, Fighter, Tanker) required far above what it took to get a single 2 ship over target armed with LGBs (with the resultant increase in fuel costs, maintenance etc.). And it was obvious that putting fewer aircrew at risk was something that didn't factor into her spreadsheets.
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
BDK
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Re: Rep. Adam Smith want to CANX F35

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My point is, we need to look at how to break the ability of the Islamic world to engage in terrorism. Part of that is ensuring that a lower percentage of our GDP is consumed in the conflict, than theirs.

(Especially, if China's digital yuan gains traction. It would be difficult for us to block, and could give a way for the villains to more easily engage in business.)
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Windy Wilson
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Re: Rep. Adam Smith want to CANX F35

Post by Windy Wilson »

Keeping the oil price low would help that, as would not giving free cash in palletized quantities that would make a drug lord blush.
Specifically, Germany has to reexamine its law prohibiting foreign language instructional material from coming from a country's government. They could not have their Muslim population use the relatively safe materials and books the Saudis used, but required the Wahabi texts since they were not state sponsored. This creates a hole in their defenses big enough for two million jihadis to walk through.
The use of the word "but" usually indicates that everything preceding it in a sentence is a lie.
E.g.:
"I believe in Freedom of Speech, but". . .
"I support the Second Amendment, but". . .
--Randy
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Vonz90
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Re: Rep. Adam Smith want to CANX F35

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https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... ic-flight/

I am assuming this is because the skin on the B and C versions is thinner to save weight. Since the Navy services do not operate at high altitude that much may not be a problem, but IDK.
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randy
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Re: Rep. Adam Smith want to CANX F35

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I dealt mostly with air-to-mud, not air-to-air, so I don't know just how often MACH1+ is actually used in that realm. I would think it would be more important for air defense types than strike operations. I can see how that might be important for Fleet air defense especially.

I have issues figuring out where it would really be needed for things like Marine air support. Especially with the development of hypersonic weapons to get to the target very quickly from a long ways away.

And it highlights again the problems that arise when the services (or someone above them) insist on a single do everything platform.
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
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Re: Rep. Adam Smith want to CANX F35

Post by blackeagle603 »

Sometimes we need a fillet knife but they keep insisting on issuing only the full monty Swiss Army knife.
"The Guncounter: More fun than a barrel of tattooed knife-fighting chain-smoking monkey butlers with drinking problems and excessive gambling debts!"

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic;" Justice Story
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