Christianity in the USA

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Vonz90
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Christianity in the USA

Post by Vonz90 »

https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... n-america/

I actually do not think it is this bad (and do not think it was that good in the past).
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g-man
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Re: Christianity in the USA

Post by g-man »

More likely to report as such in the past due to societal pressure. Less likely to report as such now for the same reason. Agree.
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BDK
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Re: Christianity in the USA

Post by BDK »

Vonz90 wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:37 am https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... n-america/

I actually do not think it is this bad (and do not think it was that good in the past).
Protestant Christianity built civilization. Catholic countries do not fare nearly as well, but in general, are nicer places than non-Christian nations.
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Vonz90
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Re: Christianity in the USA

Post by Vonz90 »

BDK wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:47 am
Vonz90 wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:37 am https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... n-america/

I actually do not think it is this bad (and do not think it was that good in the past).
Protestant Christianity built civilization. Catholic countries do not fare nearly as well, but in general, are nicer places than non-Christian nations.
I would generally agree with your statement, at least with the modifier of "modern civilization".

My point has more to do with the change over we are seeing that this article talks about. What we are seeing is a collapse of the cultural side of Christianity because the culture has settled into a very anti-Christian mindset. So thise who went to church as a social matter rather than a matter of faith are dropping off. The left wing churches are of course getting hit the hardest because that is where they live.

In the long run this is actually good because the churches that survive are going to be focused on the Gospel like they should be.
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Netpackrat
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Re: Christianity in the USA

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BDK wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:47 am Protestant Christianity built civilization. Catholic countries do not fare nearly as well, but in general, are nicer places than non-Christian nations.
I think it is probably more accurate to say that it got in the way less than catholicism. In the nations that stayed catholic, the church remained the main power, while in protestant nations, the power of the church over all aspects of people’s lives was largely broken.
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Vonz90
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Re: Christianity in the USA

Post by Vonz90 »

Netpackrat wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:46 pm
BDK wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:47 am Protestant Christianity built civilization. Catholic countries do not fare nearly as well, but in general, are nicer places than non-Christian nations.
I think it is probably more accurate to say that it got in the way less than catholicism. In the nations that stayed catholic, the church remained the main power, while in protestant nations, the power of the church over all aspects of people’s lives was largely broken.
If you look at where Christian Europe was at the start of of the Reformation (i.e. before there was a Protestant anything) They were pretty much kicking everyone's ass in terms of growth and development.

Protestantism accelerated this for a variety of reasons, but it was a matter of degree.
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D5CAV
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Re: Christianity in the USA

Post by D5CAV »

Vonz90 wrote: Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:37 am https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... n-america/

I actually do not think it is this bad (and do not think it was that good in the past).
Yeah, with the current positions of the Anglican church, I'm warming up to Sharia law myself
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
BDK
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Re: Christianity in the USA

Post by BDK »

Netpackrat wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:46 pm I think it is probably more accurate to say that it got in the way less than catholicism. In the nations that stayed catholic, the church remained the main power, while in protestant nations, the power of the church over all aspects of people’s lives was largely broken.
I know we have different faiths, but Ancient Greece and, sorta, Rome show what an attempt at an atheist civilization is.

Admittedly, they were related - and I'm not really tying the Soviets/ChiComs under the rest of the atheist umbrella - but, it seems to take a religious belief in a higher authority for individuals to be perceived as having worth/rights under the law.

Essentially, centrally planned economies fail, because they react too slowly, and never correctly, due to the limitations of the flow of information.

Similarly, an atheist society becomes one ruled solely by logic, and reason. So far, "scientific societies" have involved mass murder, and social collapse.

Vonz has an excellent point. The two largest Protestant denominations - United Methodist and Presbyterian branch I forgot the name of - have abandoned basic principles of Protestantism - namely, basing all positions on scripture. Regardless of your faith, when any organization, or person, becomes fundamentally conflicted, failure results.

Barring a significant change in DC, we will see them fail, as well, for the same reason.

The Catholicism is a centrally planned faith - it has, historically, been more comfortable with strong central governments. I do not know if the faith itself leads to less development, or its just its support for strong central governments which cause the failure - that it retards growth seems apparent.
MarkD
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Re: Christianity in the USA

Post by MarkD »

I saw this the other day, but wanted to wait until I had a keyboard to respond.

I was born in 1963, and when I was a kid the question wasn't "Do you go to church" but "Which church do you go to?" In fact, in my immediate neighborhood (old Italian neighborhood) the question was "Do you go to St Clement's or St Michael's?", both Roman Catholic. Anything else (and I do mean anything, Baptist, Lutheran, Jewish, Hindu, Moonie) came under "Other". In the larger society the basic categories were Protestant (which covered everything from snake-handling Baptists to Missouri Synod Lutherans), Catholic, Orthodox (maybe, if there were a large Greek or Russian population locally), Jewish and Other.

Culture? The local Mob enforcers were members in good standing of the Roman Catholic church. Many of the men had mistresses and/or bastards on the side. Many were drunks (especially among the Irish Catholics, don't ask me how I know). If asked they'd have self-identified as "Christian".

So now, although fewer are actually professed Christians, the percentage of folks actually attempting to live the Christian life is probably about the same, just as there WERE devout Christians back then among the criminals, adulterers and drunks in the pews.
The Catholicism is a centrally planned faith - it has, historically, been more comfortable with strong central governments. I do not know if the faith itself leads to less development, or its just its support for strong central governments which cause the failure - that it retards growth seems apparent.
I think you're mixing up two different things:

1) ALL faiths need to be centrally planned, because they ultimately deal with eternal, un-changing Truth. There's not only no need for "development", there's a definite need NOT to develop. So changing doctrines (as opposed to lesser ideas like disciplines) is done very slowly and carefully (hence hardly ever). I can give examples if you like.

2) In the period for a few hundred years before the Reformation, clergy (meaning Catholic clergy) were not only involved in the church, they were politically powerful men. And yes, the church organization was somewhat modeled after midieval aristocratic patterns, because that' what was common at the time. Does it work? Compare to, say, my own (former) Episcopal church and their much more Democratic methodology.
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