Rise of the Midwits

This forum is for discussion of politics, diplomacy, law, and justice
User avatar
Vonz90
Posts: 4731
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:05 pm

Rise of the Midwits

Post by Vonz90 »

User avatar
Weetabix
Posts: 6106
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:04 pm

Re: Rise of the Midwits

Post by Weetabix »

The explanation of Midwit spread as a function of incentives rather than of a master plan makes sense.

Question is, how would one remove those incentives from a large organization, or is that even possible?
Note to self: start reading sig lines. They're actually quite amusing. :D
Cobar
Posts: 1513
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:23 pm

Re: Rise of the Midwits

Post by Cobar »

Pournelle thought it was inevitable. LINK

Can't come up with an answer off the top of my head.
User avatar
Vonz90
Posts: 4731
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:05 pm

Re: Rise of the Midwits

Post by Vonz90 »

There is a lot of discussion about this phenomena in some studies about the Nazis. The administrative class went all in for the Nazis more than any other and they did not have to be told to implement every detail because they just did it on their own based on the party's stated priorities. This is the same thing in modern form, for almost the same ideology.
User avatar
HTRN
Posts: 12397
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:05 am

Re: Rise of the Midwits

Post by HTRN »

Cobar wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:01 am Pournelle thought it was inevitable. LINK

Can't come up with an answer off the top of my head.
He wasn't wrong - take a look a lot who inevitably winds up in charge of HOA organizations for example.
Last edited by HTRN on Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
HTRN, I would tell you that you are an evil fucker, but you probably get that a lot ~ Netpackrat

Describing what HTRN does as "antics" is like describing the wreck of the Titanic as "a minor boating incident" ~ First Shirt
User avatar
blackeagle603
Posts: 9770
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:13 am

Re: Rise of the Midwits

Post by blackeagle603 »

Cobar wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:01 am Pournelle thought it was inevitable. LINK

Can't come up with an answer off the top of my head.
That is worth a quote, not just a link. Quoting for truth:
Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people":

First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.

Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.

The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.
"The Guncounter: More fun than a barrel of tattooed knife-fighting chain-smoking monkey butlers with drinking problems and excessive gambling debts!"

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic;" Justice Story
User avatar
scipioafricanus
Posts: 1298
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: Rise of the Midwits

Post by scipioafricanus »

blackeagle603 wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:50 pm
Cobar wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:01 am Pournelle thought it was inevitable. LINK

Can't come up with an answer off the top of my head.
That is worth a quote, not just a link. Quoting for truth:
Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people":

First, there will be those who are devoted to the goals of the organization. Examples are dedicated classroom teachers in an educational bureaucracy, many of the engineers and launch technicians and scientists at NASA, even some agricultural scientists and advisors in the former Soviet Union collective farming administration.

Secondly, there will be those dedicated to the organization itself. Examples are many of the administrators in the education system, many professors of education, many teachers union officials, much of the NASA headquarters staff, etc.

The Iron Law states that in every case the second group will gain and keep control of the organization. It will write the rules, and control promotions within the organization.
Damn true.
If there is a Stairway to Heaven, is there an Escalator to Hell?
If God wanted men to play soccer, he wouldn’t have given us arms. - Mike Ditka
Greg
Posts: 8486
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:15 pm

Re: Rise of the Midwits

Post by Greg »

Vonz90 wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:06 am There is a lot of discussion about this phenomena in some studies about the Nazis. The administrative class went all in for the Nazis more than any other and they did not have to be told to implement every detail because they just did it on their own based on the party's stated priorities. This is the same thing in modern form, for almost the same ideology.
Nazis, Commies, same deal.

I remember reading something once about the early days, when the Nazis and Commies would engage in low level warfare on the streets, how both groups were similar enough ideologically that they recruited from the same types of people so anything that would give a recruiting advantage was HUGE. Enter Hugo Boss. It was just *cooler* to be a Nazi.

I don't think the recruiting overlap went away when the need changed from brawlers to bureaucrats. Each organization, in different locations, went through the same type of evolution when it established itself.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr
User avatar
randy
Posts: 8334
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:33 pm
Location: EM79VQ

Re: Rise of the Midwits

Post by randy »

Greg wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:43 pm I don't think the recruiting overlap went away when the need changed from brawlers to bureaucrats. Each organization, in different locations, went through the same type of evolution when it established itself.
C.F. STASI and VOLKSPOLEZI after the change in management of the Eastern half of Germany in 1945
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
User avatar
Windy Wilson
Posts: 4875
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:32 am

Re: Rise of the Midwits

Post by Windy Wilson »

HTRN wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 9:40 pm He wasn't wrong - take a look a lot who inevitably winds up in charge of HOA organizations for example.
Home Owner Association disputes are particularly ferocious because so little is at stake.
The use of the word "but" usually indicates that everything preceding it in a sentence is a lie.
E.g.:
"I believe in Freedom of Speech, but". . .
"I support the Second Amendment, but". . .
--Randy
Post Reply