Arrest at Obama rally sparks gun rights debate

[mekender]

Dumb + dangerous + publicity will often = Illegal.

This is subjective reasoning. I have no doubt the anti's are happy about this, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that this state's open carry law doesn't mention presidential candidate rallys being the exeption to the law. What other state laws does a presidential candidate's presence suspend?

I'm not sure I was clear. I am sure that the open carry law does not exclude presidential rallies. My concern is that new laws will be passed that will implement all sorts of restrictions since idiots push the boundaries of common sense, and political opponents of gun rights will swoop in and easily win the argument.

In this particular case, we do not, and will not, know what threats the USSS and law enforcement are being proactive about. Neither did he, but at some level he had to be guessing.

Oh please. The USSS is obviously concerned about somebody shooting the candidate, since that historically exactly how they are killed, and everybody does in fact know that. Somebody displaying a gun is clearly going to be considered a potential threat. You are being intellectually dishonest.

looks like this guy is an Opencarry.org and a pafoa.org member

Obama's rights to free speech and assembly do not supersede his rights to carry a gun.

It has nothing to do with Obama's rights. Your statement would be funny if so many people didn't believe it, and if the lunacy of that position and ones like it didn't poison common sense arguments for gun rights. Instead it's sad.

really? then you would agree that the man wasn't interfering with Obama's rally and was not committing a crime. and that he was harassed, arrested and had his property stolen by law enforcement without committing a crime?

[Spells]

then you would agree that the man wasn't interfering with Obama's rally and was not committing a crime. and that he was harassed, arrested and had his property stolen by law enforcement without committing a crime?

Uh, no, I wouldn't agree with most of that. As Chris' blog recently pointed out, they can always get you for something. In this case they'll probably prosecute and convict him for something like disorderly conduct, which it looks like he's guilty of (and brief googling indicates that laws about interfering with Secret Service protection are mighty broad). He can argue his goal wasn't to disrupt security operations at the rally, or the rally itself, but the Internet post telling people to bring guns is not going to help him.

As for "stealing" his gun, when you do something that gets you arrested, you don't get to wear your gun to jail with you. They take it away and return it in a typical bureaucratic time frame, assuming it isn't held as evidence. It's not stealing.

And he should have watched those videos about not talking to the cops before talking to your lawyer:
http://www.timesonline.com/articles/200 ... 519053.txt

Schexnaildre said that when police first questioned him, Noble said he didn’t know Obama would be in Beaver until his wife told him about it just prior to their arrival. Schexnaildre wrote that was obviously untrue because of the Web posting.

Oops.

So thanks to this idiot, the argument moves from people's right to defend themselves and their property to people's right to display guns around Presidential candidates, and that is not a winnable debate. Well done. Next he should argue he has the right to leave IEDs in front of W's motorcade.

[mekender]

then you would agree that the man wasn't interfering with Obama's rally and was not committing a crime. and that he was harassed, arrested and had his property stolen by law enforcement without committing a crime?

Uh, no, I wouldn't agree with most of that. As Chris' blog recently pointed out, they can always get you for something. In this case they'll probably prosecute and convict him for something like disorderly conduct, which it looks like he's guilty of (and brief googling indicates that laws about interfering with Secret Service protection are mighty broad). He can argue his goal wasn't to disrupt security operations at the rally, or the rally itself, but the Internet post telling people to bring guns is not going to help him.

except you are missing one key piece of information

PA courts have ruled repeatedly that carrying a gun in an open holster was not sufficient grounds to charge someone with disorderly conduct. He wont get federal charges, he didnt attempt to breech the security perimeter. He was standing on a sidewalk, handing out pamphlets. The only reason the cops initiated contact was because he was openly carrying, which is not a crime in PA.

[Spells]

He wont get federal charges, he didnt attempt to breech the security perimeter.

From the same article:
The trooper added that Noble said “he did not think he would get within a mile of the senator, but was apprehended within 100 yards of the podium after crossing the outer perimeter barrier tape and being in a position to see no less than a dozen police officers.”

[mekender]

He wont get federal charges, he didnt attempt to breech the security perimeter.

From the same article:
The trooper added that Noble said “he did not think he would get within a mile of the senator, but was apprehended within 100 yards of the podium after crossing the outer perimeter barrier tape and being in a position to see no less than a dozen police officers.”

Federal authorities said they would not file charges against Noble because he did not enter Irvine Park. To do so, he would have had to pass through a metal detector.

ok so now either the feds or the locals are lying... im betting on the local cops. Funny thing, none of the other articles mention that little tidbit... in fact they say that he was not inside the perimeter...

the article you linked is a full day older than the one at the top of this thread.

the newer article does say:

In the charges filed against Noble, state police trooper Shawn Schexnaildre wrote that if witness John Atkinson hadn’t been alarmed by Noble, Atkinson wouldn’t have notified nearby officers.

“This may be due to the fact that a political assassination is as devastating as any crime that can be committed and is nearly always committed with a gun. Either way, (Noble’s) actions, without question, created a public alarm,” Schexnaildre wrote.

here is the link with the original post by mr Noble and his replies

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/general-2/31 ... ibles.html

Bring your gun and Bible to Beaver tonite, lets show Obama how we hug our Bibles and guns. On a different note Pres McCain picked a gun toten women from Ak as his running mate. This is going to be good. Stay safe Mtn Jack

obviously a response to the "bitter gun owners" comment.

and then after the incident

Wow where were you guys, i didnt get to stay very long at the rally. My wife carried my bible home. I got a ride with some interesting people in a fast car. I think i have a story to tell, stay tuned. Interesting people are watching this site. Be safe Mtn Jack

in the large thread i linked one poster says:

I don't know where MTN Jack was when he was arrested. I do know that the park the rally was held in was roped off, but the side walks were not. The same block across the street was also roped off, again with the exception of the sidewalks. The main street was closed off for maybe a block or two in each direction. All traffic was diverted to a side street.

so i am not sure that the sidewalks were part of the perimeter.

i am still reading the entire thread on pafoa.org, to me it looks like he may have walked down a side walk that wasnt roped off, but the street next to the sidewalk was roped off. Im now pretty sure that charges will be dropped against him and he may have a nice lawsuit on his hands.

[mekender]

here is another article, this one from august 30th

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08243/908351-100.stm

Mr. Noble, 50, of Industry, said he wore a holstered Glock 19 when he entered the park across the street from the Beaver County Courthouse more than an hour before Mr. Obama arrived for a campaign appearance Friday night.

"I had a Bible in one hand and an apple in the other. I was going to pass out my fliers [on the rights of law-abiding Americans to carry guns], but I never got the chance."

State police in Beaver County referred questions about Mr. Noble's arrest to Trooper Shawn Schexnaildre, of New Castle, who was part of the law enforcement detail in the park. The trooper, who was to begin his shift later today, could not be reached immediately for comment.

Jim Gehr, agent in charge of the U.S. Secret Service field office in Pittsburgh, said the federal agency did not file any charges against Mr. Noble.

"Our people did talk to him. He never entered the event area," Agent Gehr said.

Mr. Noble said four or five law officers, plus a police dog, descended on him after somebody reported that he was wearing a pistol on his hip. He said they held him for 40 minutes in a Secret Service vehicle, then took him to the Beaver barracks of the state police for questioning. After being cuffed and shackled, he said, police eventually read him his rights. They also confiscated his pistol.

[mekender]

it is starting to look like the PSP (Pennsylvania state police) are not telling the truth based on the number of news stories that contradict their statements..

here is a map of the area with the park in question highlighted

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8& ... 29cd3&z=17

and here is the same map with a 100 yard line drawn around the block (park) in question

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/ ... 00yrds.jpg

please note, i am hearing that the white building to the west is the courthouse and is a common place to see people open carrying because that is where they go to renew their permits.

[308Mike]

It also wouldn't be a surprise to discover the media has truly screwed the pooch on this story and has it all bassackwards. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I was at a scene and what happened didn't even resemble what the media reported. They screw shit up ALL the time, but if you weren't there, you'd never know it.

[mekender]

ok, ive read all 69 pages and all of the linked news stories...

first here is the opencarry.org press release

http://paopencarry.org/beaver/beaver.pdf

it looks like the PSP have turned what was a mistake into an active situation of keeping themselves from looking bad. the DA has even stated:

Beaver County District Attorney Anthony Berosh said the issue isn’t whether Noble was legally carrying a gun. State police said Noble did not violate the state’s open carry law, under which you don’t need a permit to carry a weapon in plain sight.

Instead, Berosh said, it’s a battle between two constitutional rights: The right to bear arms and the right to assemble peaceably and without fear.

“No constitutional right pre-empts the other,” Berosh said.

Berosh said Noble did not have the right to alarm anyone around him attending the Barack Obama rally in Irvine Park.

PA state law clearly states that OC is not an action that fits into the definition of disturbing the peace.

Furthermore, PA state law REQUIRES that a cop give you a receipt for anything they confiscate from you.

This man was harassed by cops, let go without charge, but still had his property confiscated.

Then after they got their stories straight, they decided to charge him.

This kind of thing happens every so often in the US, it is the people that are brave enough to test the waters on it that ensures that the rest us can still exercise our rights.

You might call OC stupid, and that is fine. You might even say that people like Mr Noble are being stupid in their exercise of rights. That is fine too.

Just remember that at one point, blacks that defiantly refused to sit at the back of the bus were called the same things. After enough of them were arrested for exercising their rights, the laws finally started to change.

[308Mike]

Also, you don't have the ability to "alarm" someone, that is THEIR reaction to some stimulus. He's not alarming anyone, he's standing there as the law clearly allows. If "being alarmed" is reason to charge someone with a crime, what if I don't like their Urkel t-shirt and thinking of him being elected ALARMS ME, why can't I have all of THEM arrested? I'd argue that particular law is unconstitutionally vague, it's standards for being in violation are absolutely unclear to the point ANYONE can be in violation, at any time.

Being "alarmed" is a choice, not a violation of law.