Hmmm......maybe he's right.

[Vonz90]

Eight years of the Left and the media shouting "Bush sucks!" constantly have sunk into peoples' consciousness. Bush Derangement Syndrome is rampant. Bush hasn't done that bad a job, I'd take him in a New York minute over Carter or Clinton.

Actually, the biggest problem with Bush is that he choose Cheney as VP. Not that I mind Cheney per se, he is a good guy - but he didn't have any plans to run for POTUS. That essentially made W. an extremely lame duck as soon as he started his second term. He effectively stopped all efforts at communicating his message and agenda. Since 2006 he has been just playing out the clock because there was no one in the White House who had personal vested interest in making sure that they continued to think about the 2006 and '08 campaigns.

The right does not have the media to carry their water for them, we have to do it ourselves and we see what happens when the leader of our party does not do that.

[308Mike]

* Torture

Yeah, I guess granny-panties on someone's head is a little much. I mean sawing someone's head off with a dull knife while they're screaming is expected from the other side, so it's okay - and the libs don't acknowledge it as torture (while they're still alive).

[blackeagle603]

I understand the "hearts and minds" aspects of not wanting to torture. This is after all a war of ideas that occasionally gets interrupted by military actions.

What I really object is the defining downward of torture. It demeans the suffering and sacrifice of our brothers (and sisters) in arms, countrymen and allies who have indeed been tortured.

I'm not certain exactly where to draw the line. However, of this much I am convinced, if it's allowed in SERE training me&mine went through as part of our training I say it's fair game with our prisoners.

That includes smoke houses, cold, heat, claustrophobic hotboxes, sleep deprivation, nakedness, humiliation, sustained uncomfortable positions, sensory deprivation, sensory/audio overload, isolation, and yes Harriet even forced smoke inhalation and waterboarding to the point of losing consciousness.

I dunno if the waterboard or electric shock plate are still used in SERE but that's beside the point they have been used in the modern era to train our military personnel.