Does not follow...

If it doesnt fit anywhere else but you still want to share, this is the place
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Vonz90
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Re: Does not follow...

Post by Vonz90 »

Greg wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:59 pm
Vonz90 wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:04 pm
Greg wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:45 am

So let them die. I find drugs personally extremely distasteful, but IMO once you open the door to the notion that 'we here have all decided that we need to take away your freedom for your own good' then the treatment is more damaging than the disease.

Note I make the distinction 'for your own good'... if you're an actual danger to others than those others have the right to take action in their own defense.
It is not them I care about, it is everything they impact.
There is an exact parallel here with Democrats and gun laws.

Everything they do to cause that impact is already illegal. Start there.

See also Prohibition.
No there is no parallel at all. There is nothing about owning a firearm that prevents one from being a rationale actor. It is entirely possible for a minor to become addicted to various had drugs and quite literally never be able to make an informed decision about the matter. That is actually the norm. Also, as w3 see when it is legal you get more of it. (Or maybe you are okay to dealers handing out free fentanyl samples to middle school kids - IDK)

..and that is the problem with extreme libertarianism, like everything else. It is one principle, there are others as well, they are in tension and have to be balanced. There is no libertarian utopia like there is no other utopias.

I get your point of view, and I share it to an extent. There are options between prohibition and everything goes.
Greg
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Re: Does not follow...

Post by Greg »

Vonz90 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:31 am
Greg wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:59 pm
Vonz90 wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:04 pm

It is not them I care about, it is everything they impact.
There is an exact parallel here with Democrats and gun laws.

Everything they do to cause that impact is already illegal. Start there.

See also Prohibition.
No there is no parallel at all. There is nothing about owning a firearm that prevents one from being a rationale actor. It is entirely possible for a minor to become addicted to various had drugs and quite literally never be able to make an informed decision about the matter. That is actually the norm. Also, as w3 see when it is legal you get more of it. (Or maybe you are okay to dealers handing out free fentanyl samples to middle school kids - IDK)

..and that is the problem with extreme libertarianism, like everything else. It is one principle, there are others as well, they are in tension and have to be balanced. There is no libertarian utopia like there is no other utopias.

I get your point of view, and I share it to an extent. There are options between prohibition and everything goes.
How does every argument in favor of restricting the freedoms of adults wind up about the children? It's a bad crutch and it's got nearly a Godwin's Law effect. Lots of things minors cannot, by definition, consent to.

Which relates to consenting adults how? And the gun parallel is quite real. One strong strain of argument is that the mere presence of a gun interferes with your rationality, see waiting period laws, leftist projection about empowerment fantasies, etc.

And they reduce to protecting those not fit to make their own decisions by making other people less free. Wish I could still buy sudafed that worked.

Anyway, when what is legal you get more if it? Taking drugs? So what? The problem is not the taking drugs in itself. The problem is causing harm to others, all the other things that are already illegal. Lots of ways to drive impaired that don't involve drugs. Lots of stealing happens other than to pay for drugs.

Enforce that. And yet another example of parallel with guns, failure to enforce existing laws leads to an environment where you can gin up a 'something has to be done' response and blame a thing. Things are morally neutral. Well except this thing. And to contain this thing, we have to make the people who harm noone and follow the law be less free.

And that argument about we can only exist as a nation of rational adults and drugs prevent rationality? You have just reinvented the temperance movement, exact same argument. Seriously.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr
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Vonz90
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Re: Does not follow...

Post by Vonz90 »

Greg wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:39 am
Vonz90 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:31 am
Greg wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:59 pm

There is an exact parallel here with Democrats and gun laws.

Everything they do to cause that impact is already illegal. Start there.

See also Prohibition.
No there is no parallel at all. There is nothing about owning a firearm that prevents one from being a rationale actor. It is entirely possible for a minor to become addicted to various had drugs and quite literally never be able to make an informed decision about the matter. That is actually the norm. Also, as w3 see when it is legal you get more of it. (Or maybe you are okay to dealers handing out free fentanyl samples to middle school kids - IDK)

..and that is the problem with extreme libertarianism, like everything else. It is one principle, there are others as well, they are in tension and have to be balanced. There is no libertarian utopia like there is no other utopias.

I get your point of view, and I share it to an extent. There are options between prohibition and everything goes.
How does every argument in favor of restricting the freedoms of adults wind up about the children? It's a bad crutch and it's got nearly a Godwin's Law effect. Lots of things minors cannot, by definition, consent to.

Which relates to consenting adults how? And the gun parallel is quite real. One strong strain of argument is that the mere presence of a gun interferes with your rationality, see waiting period laws, leftist projection about empowerment fantasies, etc.

And they reduce to protecting those not fit to make their own decisions by making other people less free. Wish I could still buy sudafed that worked.

Anyway, when what is legal you get more if it? Taking drugs? So what? The problem is not the taking drugs in itself. The problem is causing harm to others, all the other things that are already illegal. Lots of ways to drive impaired that don't involve drugs. Lots of stealing happens other than to pay for drugs.

Enforce that. And yet another example of parallel with guns, failure to enforce existing laws leads to an environment where you can gin up a 'something has to be done' response and blame a thing. Things are morally neutral. Well except this thing. And to contain this thing, we have to make the people who harm noone and follow the law be less free.

And that argument about we can only exist as a nation of rational adults and drugs prevent rationality? You have just reinvented the temperance movement, exact same argument. Seriously.
Because (as I said before) libertarian principles work very well when dealing with rational adults making decisions. Highly addictive drugs prevent rational decisions and they are often (usually really) marketed/pushed on minors who not good at making decisions - so this is an area that doesn't work well for libertarian principles without taking other principles into account.

Thus I mention the example where it applies, making every drug legal means the scenario I described would be legal.

There is also the fact that all of this impacts culture and both economics and politics are downstream from culture - incentives and unintended consequences are not just a problem for the Left.

As for the temperance movement, no. They went from the standpoint that a common product that was used by the majority of people for thousands of years was intrinsically evil. I am very much for as low of a restriction on whatever as reasonable, with the understanding it will be different depending on what thing we are talking about. I actually think we over restrict alcohol - we have created a situation where teenagers can get drugs easier than a beer which is stupid.

I am not arguing for any specific set of policies here, but there are no solutions, only trade offs. The trade offs for highly addictive drugs are different so the approach has to be different.
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HTRN
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Re: Does not follow...

Post by HTRN »

HTRN, I would tell you that you are an evil fucker, but you probably get that a lot ~ Netpackrat

Describing what HTRN does as "antics" is like describing the wreck of the Titanic as "a minor boating incident" ~ First Shirt
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HTRN
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Re: Does not follow...

Post by HTRN »

Attorneys talking about gun mods that will hurt you in court:
https://youtube.com/shorts/g9F-EKRlIcg?feature=share

Surprisingly, it's the nonfunctional ones that cause the most problems.
HTRN, I would tell you that you are an evil fucker, but you probably get that a lot ~ Netpackrat

Describing what HTRN does as "antics" is like describing the wreck of the Titanic as "a minor boating incident" ~ First Shirt
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HTRN
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Re: Does not follow...

Post by HTRN »

Rudy Giuliani "attacked" at a Staten Island Supermarket:
https://nypost.com/2022/06/26/rudy-giul ... -shoprite/

The attacker was arrested, but charges were later downgraded, and he was released:
https://nypost.com/2022/06/27/rudy-giul ... owngraded/

Mayor Worthless stuck his nose in, commented it was a phony assault, to which, Lord Combovwr told him to go fuck himself:
https://nypost.com/2022/06/28/eric-adam ... et-attack/

I swear, I'm living in the twilight zone.. :roll:
HTRN, I would tell you that you are an evil fucker, but you probably get that a lot ~ Netpackrat

Describing what HTRN does as "antics" is like describing the wreck of the Titanic as "a minor boating incident" ~ First Shirt
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Vonz90
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Re: Does not follow...

Post by Vonz90 »

Here we go again:

https://www.foxnews.com/us/chicago-crow ... ght-unrest

I will withhold judgment until all the information is in, but if he actually took a shot at the police, then he earned his ventilation.
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Vonz90
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Re: Does not follow...

Post by Vonz90 »

Shooting one of my pistols in back and now heating up some hot dogs to go with my beer - that is as American as I can get today with the rest of the household working. Happy 4th everyone!
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HTRN
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Re: Does not follow...

Post by HTRN »

Joey Chestnut scarfs down a dog, while choking out a protestor, before winning Nathan's hot dog eating contest, on the 4th of July... With a broken foot in cast. :shock:

https://mobile.twitter.com/JomboyMedia/ ... 4bLkw&s=19

This may be the most American thing I've ever seen :lol:
HTRN, I would tell you that you are an evil fucker, but you probably get that a lot ~ Netpackrat

Describing what HTRN does as "antics" is like describing the wreck of the Titanic as "a minor boating incident" ~ First Shirt
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