Anybody watch "Revolution"?

[HTRN]

I would expect the first few years of warlordism to devolve to archery and contact weapons, with everybody feverishly working to achieve matchlock and then flintlock muskets.

Warlordism. Maybe. possibly even probably. But archery and contact weapons? There are 200 million firearms in the US, with who knows how many billions of rounds of ammunition about it.

[Flintlock Tom]

...
Eventually. There are very few people these days who have worked with those technologies. Quite a few of us have a general idea of how they should work in theory, and given sufficient resources would be able to rig something up. But there would be a lot of trial and error involved, not to mention we'd be busy trying to survive the disaster itself, plus the aftermath. It could very easily take a decade or two to work back up to a 19th century level of technology given a disaster of sufficient magnitude, and if electricity was for some reason off limits.
...

Are we assuming that reference books no longer work either?

[Rod]

One possiblity that would work (kind of) in this scenario is a massive EMP attack worldwide. Some hardened electronics would survive (thus the computers in the show) but much of civilization would revert nearly to third world status. But that would have required the show to allow steam and other power sources while the system was rebuilt.

[Netpackrat]

Warlordism. Maybe. possibly even probably. But archery and contact weapons? There are 200 million firearms in the US, with who knows how many billions of rounds of ammunition about it.

Yeah, I know. But it isn't like I have watched the show, and I had the impression from this thread that for some reason there were no firearms. As I said in my post, it's a pretty stupid premise to begin with.

Are we assuming that reference books no longer work either?

Not at all. But you've got to put people with the bare minimum of a clue required, in possession of the reference books. And give them the time and resources to do anything with them. And lets face it, reference books on making powder and harnessing steam and water power are not exactly common these days. It isn't like you'd be able to bring up Amazon and order them. I dare say they would be a hard find at most public libraries anymore, either.

Come the electroapocalypse everyone get yourselves round to my place for a powder making party and bring plenty of urine

Except that if electricity ceases to exist then so will the entire universe - which may put a damper on things.

I think my point that there are relatively few people like you around stands, and that you'll have to survive first, and it's a process that can take some time. And yeah, the premise is dumb anyway.

[Rich Jordan]

Just as a point of interest in the 'rebuilding' phase.

Global Village Construction Set

I haven't had time to look to see how low-level into the processes they go but the wiki looked interesting

[Dinochrome]

One possiblity that would work (kind of) in this scenario is a massive EMP attack worldwide. Some hardened electronics would survive (thus the computers in the show) but much of civilization would revert nearly to third world status. But that would have required the show to allow steam and other power sources while the system was rebuilt.

"One Second After" by William R. Forstchen: A major EMP attack destroys all but the most hardened solid-state electronics in North America, Europe, and Western Asia including Japan.

No power grid, all modern vehicles inoperative, all modern communications systems down.

No power grid means most refrigeration doesn't work, no electric lights that aren't using batteries, no modern medical equipment. Older-style gen-sets can be made to work, but most portable units can't start refrigeration compressors.

All modern vehicles have their electronic ignitions and Engine-Control-Modules fried. Vehicles with breaker-point ignitions and no solid-state controls will still work. Some diesels might run if control electronics are bypassed.

No Internet, no modern telephone systems, even most radios are inoperative. Vacuum-tube equipment will still operate if ways can be found to power them. Old-style telephone exchanges (electromechanical switches and rotary-dial phones) will still function as long as the battery-banks hold a charge.

After the attack, medical patients on life-support die immediately. Patients depending on prescription drugs to live will start to die after about a month. Diabetics who need insulin to live might last six months with no refrigeration to preserve the insulin.

With most mass-transport down, people in large cities will start to starve almost immediately. Most will not make it out alive. Since the attack takes place just before crop-planting in the spring, the whole country will suffer food shortages for at least a year.

The small rural town in the story suffers a ninety-percent death-rate in one year due to starvation, disease, and the depredations of a cannibal army.

Very scary book.

[Rich Jordan]

RE: One Second After.

Just as a point of interest; I bought the $79 Harber Freight 900 watt generator after an extended power outage here cost us a lot of money in food. Better than nothing until we can afford the set we really want (and then a dandy loanable). It has NO problem at all running our full size refrigerator/freezer, and by several accounts can (barely) run a 5000BTU window A/C.

I liked the book (and hated it) but there are a lot of items in it that were exaggerated to make it absolute worst case.

[HTRN]

No power grid, all modern vehicles inoperative, all modern communications systems down.

The grid yes(part of the reason why it's so vulnerable, is the longer the antenna, the better it receives, and power grid has thousands of miles of powerlines..). The switching equipment is kinda suceptable, and this kind of stuff isn't "stocked" in any great quantity(alot of it isn't even made in this country these days)

The "modern vehicles"? Uhm, no. The computer in your car is inside a small metal box, which is inside a larger metal box. Unless it's a particularly close burst, It won't be happpening.

Ditto most electronics. Think about it. Your computer is inside a grounded metal box. Does that ring any bells? Most modern electronics are built along similar lines, to keep RF interference in, but it also effecltively keeps EMP out. Frankly the biggest threat to electronics is what is coming in through the outlet. If you've got a surge suppressor, you've almost got nothing to worry about.

Frankly, EMP is going to be the least of your concerns, as the most common method of creating it is a high altitude air burst with a nuclear weapon, is almost guaranteed to be followed by a full scale nuclear exchange.

[Dinochrome]

No power grid, all modern vehicles inoperative, all modern communications systems down.

The grid yes(part of the reason why it's so vulnerable, is the longer the antenna, the better it receives, and power grid has thousands of miles of powerlines..). The switching equipment is kinda suceptable, and this kind of stuff isn't "stocked" in any great quantity(alot of it isn't even made in this country these days)

The "modern vehicles"? Uhm, no. The computer in your car is inside a small metal box, which is inside a larger metal box. Unless it's a particularly close burst, It won't be happpening.

Most of the "metal boxes" in use in modern vehicles appear to be aluminum castings or sheet aluminum, not ferrite or other iron material. Those automotive modules are somewhat protected against RF interference, but aren't especially hardened against an EMP. Also, the inputs and outputs are not protected against voltage spikes induced in the vehicle's wiring. I've worked on hardened shipboard military electronics; ferrite cases with solid-state "sacrificial diode-bridges" to protect the interior electronics. An example: AN/SSR-1 Satellite-Fleet-Broadcast receiver.

The premise of the book was that the EMP was indeed powerful enough to disable civilian vehicles. The author used the Compton Effect to explain the super-high magnetic pulse from nuclear weapons detonated above the atmosphere. The book was about the following consequences, not the method used to cause the effect.

Ditto most electronics. Think about it. Your computer is inside a grounded metal box. Does that ring any bells? Most modern electronics are built along similar lines, to keep RF interference in, but it also effecltively keeps EMP out. Frankly the biggest threat to electronics is what is coming in through the outlet. If you've got a surge suppressor, you've almost got nothing to worry about.

The case of my computer could hardly be called a Faraday Cage; too many unprotected inputs and too many plastic case-components. The Transmitter Site at NCS Kodiak had a splendid screen-room for testing RF subassemblies without interference from the many high-powered transmitters close by. A compass would still function inside because the copper walls didn't stop the Earth's magnetic field. I acknowledge that most of the energy of an EMP would be expended to induce a current in the copper walls that would be passed to ground, but I wonder if a Faraday Cage has been tested against a real nuke; maybe at Bikini Atoll or Area 10 in Nevada? Too much civilian electronic equipment lacks metallic shielding.

Frankly, EMP is going to be the least of your concerns, as the most common method of creating it is a high altitude air burst with a nuclear weapon, is almost guaranteed to be followed by a full scale nuclear exchange.

Once again, the premise of the book was that the unknown enemy wanted to disable western civilization with the fewest-possible bombs and the least amount of radiation contamination. For the purposes of the story, no direct retaliation was possible because the perpetrators had covered their tracks too well. Tehran and North Korea got hit anyway.

[Dinochrome]

RE: One Second After.

Just as a point of interest; I bought the $79 Harber Freight 900 watt generator after an extended power outage here cost us a lot of money in food. Better than nothing until we can afford the set we really want (and then a dandy loanable). It has NO problem at all running our full size refrigerator/freezer, and by several accounts can (barely) run a 5000BTU window A/C.

I liked the book (and hated it) but there are a lot of items in it that were exaggerated to make it absolute worst case.

I had a similar unit; a Sears Craftsman 900-watt (surge) gen-set with a Kawasaki engine. It would power lights and the fan/thermostat in my gas furnace, but couldn't start the compressor in my little Sanyo refrigerator. That compressor is about the size of a grapefruit. At the time, my main fridge was a Servel propane-powered unit. I hated to give that up; after rebuilding, my house was too air-tight to allow an unvented burner inside.

I didn't understand why the town in the book couldn't get at least one fridge to operate to keep insulin cold for the diabetics. The father would have done anything to keep his daughter alive. The drama was the thing, I guess.