How do we steer the culture back to Liberty?

[Dub_James]

Nope. Pre-empt the law to begin with. If the law's clearly unconstitutional, then it is so even before it's passed. Kill it then, and punish at that point. The problem with bad law is that it has to go into effect before it can be dealt with. Change that flaw, and stop trying to use the system to patch it.

So do we put each new law before the Supreme Court before it's put into effect? Makes staying home on Election day loom even larger.....

In essence, yes, we do, although it would likely not be a Supreme Court. There needs to be a constitutional pre-filter system, with levels of punishment given based on the degree to which the proposed law violates the constitution. And yes, for a law that would never have even gone into effect, there needs to be punishment for even proposing it. It must be that strict.

Every system built so far has been constructed on the notion of what to do once the horse has bolted from the barn. The system needs to be watching all exits, sealing them immediately, then crushing the skull of the stable boy who didn't lock up after he left.

You want a system that *might* work, then it was to be something like this. Nothing less than this is ever likely to be effective. So long as there is no QA and punishment system on legislation and legislatures, then we'll continue to get code bloat, and worse.

[MarkD]

Nope. Pre-empt the law to begin with. If the law's clearly unconstitutional, then it is so even before it's passed. Kill it then, and punish at that point. The problem with bad law is that it has to go into effect before it can be dealt with. Change that flaw, and stop trying to use the system to patch it.

So do we put each new law before the Supreme Court before it's put into effect? Makes staying home on Election day loom even larger.....

In essence, yes, we do, although it would likely not be a Supreme Court. There needs to be a constitutional pre-filter system, with levels of punishment given based on the degree to which the proposed law violates the constitution. And yes, for a law that would never have even gone into effect, there needs to be punishment for even proposing it. It must be that strict.

Every system built so far has been constructed on the notion of what to do once the horse has bolted from the barn. The system needs to be watching all exits, sealing them immediately, then crushing the skull of the stable boy who didn't lock up after he left.

You want a system that *might* work, then it was to be something like this. Nothing less than this is ever likely to be effective. So long as there is no QA and punishment system on legislation and legislatures, then we'll continue to get code bloat, and worse.

You know, my Daddy used to tell me that if you wish in one hand and defecate in the other, you could bet on which would get filled first.

There's a reason why the founders (especially Jefferson) believed there ought to be a revolution every couple generations. With the destructiveness of modern weapons revolution is unthinkable. If you think otherwise, parts of the South STILL haven't recovered from the first attempt to revolt against the Federal government, and nowadays weapons are MUCH more destructive than they were in the first half of the 1860s.

So we can either work within the system we have, or toss it all and try again in a few hundred years after the smoke clears. Assuming of course that someone else doesn't move in on us while we're in a state of chaos during our revolution, such has been known to happen.

Constitutional Convention? Imagine what Obama, Clinton, etc could do with THAT, while we're busy arguing over prayer in schools, abortion, and gay marriage. And that's even before they got into fraud.

Neither your nor my suggestion has a snowball's chance in Hell of passing, every sitting Congressman and Senator KNOWS he'd be in front of a wall before the year was out. There's no WAY a half-way strict Constitutionalist would EVER get onto the Supreme Court (or whatever body is pre-approving laws) again. And how would you choose the members of the pre-approval court? Popular vote? With MA, NY, and CA in the mix? Electoral college?

It would be nice to have that Constitutional pre-screening, but we can barely get obviously unconstitutional laws overturned NOW (NFA, GCA '68 to name two that MAY fall someday, but I for one am not likely to live to see it). And that's without the people WE choose to fill the Supreme Court having to worry about a Capital offense should they vote the wrong way.

[Dub_James]

I was proposing a system that *might* prevent us getting here. I was not proposing one that gets us to where we want to be.

And in the context of your Father's words, his "wish" statement also applies to Jefferson's "ought" statement. Jefferson's idea of a revolution each generation was never going to happen simply because a revolution happened during his time. Besides, I'm not interested in restoration systems, I'm interested in a self-maintenance system, if that makes sense.

You are right though; the only way to get from here to there is to work through the current system. I fear Conservatives don't have the stomach for it, sadly.

[scipioafricanus]

As said above "less Pat Robertson, more Andrew Breitbart." Liberty and Prides in America must continue to be taught; the learning can never stop. Freedom is hard, socialism is easy.

SA

[Old Grafton]

Word. Freedom requires a fight. Socialism requires only that you lie on your back and put your feet in the air like a dead parakeet.

[Vonz90]

Start randomly killing people who oppose liberty maybe?

That's hardly random.

While Vonz is likely simply expressing frustration, he's not far off on how I thing things will have to happen, or at least how it's going to look to some. Totalitarianism never gives up without bloodshed. I see a civil war coming in this country, and it's going to make the first civil war look tame.

Honestly, I think it is somewhat more likely that socialism will run out of other people's money to spend long before we get around to fighting a civil war over liberty. The "taker" class will be hardest hit by the resulting die-off, however, so it should have much the same effect.

Just snark

[Vonz90]

As said above "less Pat Robertson, more Andrew Breitbart." Liberty and Prides in America must continue to be taught; the learning can never stop. Freedom is hard, socialism is easy.

SA

I vote for both. We will not win anything by kicking allies out of the coalition (excepting a very few nuts like the Birchers and other similar paleocons - who were not religiously motivated anyway - because they are just nuts).

The reason is simple. While I am rather libertarian motivated, I don't pretend to extend that motivation outwards. There are a lot more people who vote conservative for religious or other motives rather than for libertarian reasons (I could name quite a few who I know.)

One thing to remember about democracy, strategic victory is not winning elections because of your positions. Strategic victory is loosing elections because your opponents have adopted your key positions.

[Dub_James]

As said above "less Pat Robertson, more Andrew Breitbart." Liberty and Prides in America must continue to be taught; the learning can never stop. Freedom is hard, socialism is easy.

SA

I vote for both. We will not win anything by kicking allies out of the coalition (excepting a very few nuts like the Birchers and other similar paleocons - who were not religiously motivated anyway - because they are just nuts).

The reason is simple. While I am rather libertarian motivated, I don't pretend to extend that motivation outwards. There are a lot more people who vote conservative for religious or other motives rather than for libertarian reasons (I could name quite a few who I know.)

One thing to remember about democracy, strategic victory is not winning elections because of your positions. Strategic victory is loosing elections because your opponents have adopted your key positions.

"This company is dead. I didn't kill it. Don't blame me. It was dead when I got here. It's too late for prayers. For even if the prayers were answered, and a miracle occurred, and the yen did this, and the dollar did that, and the infrastructure did the other thing, we would still be dead! You know why? Fiber optics. New technologies. Obsolescence. We're dead, alright. We're just not broke. And do you know the surest way to go broke?

Keep getting an increasing share of a shrinking market. Down the tubes. Slow, but sure."

Allies are great. Dying allies, those tied to a dying demographic especially, are not. We seem to have forgotten Reagan's admonition about freedom not being passed down in the blood. It's not passed down in the Catechism either - Especially not today. That religious Christian power bloc is dying, and nothing will stop it. Not even their kids follow the same tenets to the same intensity.

And they're going to lose political power even before they lose demographic power. Because pretty soon they're going to find themselves outside of the Republican mainstream. They won't have a place in either party. And POOF will go their political influence. And it's never coming back. And where will they go? Form a "third party"? Won't change a thing beyond perhaps throw us down the lane even further. Because, divorced from any practical need to moderate as part of the big tent, they'll burn themselves out with their own intensity.

There's a new wave sweeping through, and we can't stop it, but we can steer it. Can Conservatives find a new way to sell genuine freedom without attaching it to the millstone of spent political and demographic forces? They can, if they'd stop eating the fresh saplings.

[Aesop]

I'd have to take your word for all that.

We haven't had an actual conservative in any national office for nearly 30 years, so I have no recent experience to go by.

[dfwmtx]

Sit folks down. Have them consume entertainment about dystopias: 1984, Brave New World, Brazil, etc. Then compare what they see in fictional dystopias to current and past news stories outlining the dystopian present reality. Watch the anger build.

Bureaucracy is kudzu on our constitutional republic's tree of liberty.