How does civilization survive w.o. the "Sublime".

[Greg]

You think modern civilization is Romantic?

Just as an example, what do you think Greens are exactly? The Romantic movement was a reaction to, if not completely a repudiation of, the Enlightenment and everything it stands for. It's one of the evil children of Rousseau, that philosophical Tiamat, mother of monsters.

WWI, which may yet turn out to be the deathblow of our civilization (we've been slowly dying from it and its further complications) unless we somehow manage an unexpected turnaround, was fueled by widespread Romantic sentiment particularly in the leading Power on each side.

Non-rational sentimental stuff is necessary for life, I agree with you there completely. It's like some of the trace minerals in our diet- you'd die without them but more than trace amounts can kill you. Unlike simple minerals though, that sentimental stuff can be powerfully addictive, making it even more dangerous.

Also, have you read the FF? I would agree that they were not, completely, Romantic - Lee was - but the FF definitely had them.

The South's rebellion was an act of Romanticism, and one known to be ultimately futile by Lee, Davis, etc - and the Civil War in general involved an over-dose of "Glory."

Haven't read the FF quite as much as I probably should, but I have some familiarity. Some emotional appeal is necessary when trying to motivate large numbers, but if the FF hadn't ultimately been *very* much rational men things would have turned out much differently (and worse) than they did.

As for the Rebellion, thank you for making my point for me. The Confederacy was an evil state, based on evil, dedicated to preserving evil, led by a class of very evil men. In the course of their evil, they forever discredited by association many otherwise good and vital principles in American political thought so they are now lost (to our great and lasting harm). Well Done!

[Darrell]

I do not consider much of what passes as "art" nowadays, to be art in the classical sense. "Art" today all too often celebrates ugliness and perversity.

[Aglifter]

As for the Rebellion, thank you for making my point for me. The Confederacy was an evil state, based on evil, dedicated to preserving evil, led by a class of very evil men. In the course of their evil, they forever discredited by association many otherwise good and vital principles in American political thought so they are now lost (to our great and lasting harm). Well Done!

Stop being an ass, for once.

[Greg]

As for the Rebellion, thank you for making my point for me. The Confederacy was an evil state, based on evil, dedicated to preserving evil, led by a class of very evil men. In the course of their evil, they forever discredited by association many otherwise good and vital principles in American political thought so they are now lost (to our great and lasting harm). Well Done!

Stop being an ass, for once.

Actually I wasn't. The 'well done' was for the Confederacy. They screwed the pooch for all of us, and I for one want my state's rights back. But thanks to them, we'll never see the concept taken seriously again.

While it may make for some stirring stories if your sympathies lie a certain way, the aftermath of the 'Lost Cause' is just another example of how deadly a poison Romanticism can be when you o.d. on it. Oh, and as a peace offering I am perfectly willing to concede (I've been thinking about this lately) that Abraham Lincoln was a tyrant who shit on the Constitution.

Unfortunately, what may be the worst part of that, is that I'm ambivalent to that (I'm not the only one, and there are many millions who go beyond ambivalence and give him a pass, and that's turned out to be DEADLY) simply because of the vileness of what he wound up fighting. We know the ends don't justify the means, but... sometimes the other guy almost *makes* you say "because fuck you, that's why" (as bad as that is).

[Yogimus]

Once the civil war became about "Slavery" in the history books, the war for states' rights was lost. Secession = slavery, state's rights = racism, etc.

[Aglifter]

I do not consider much of what passes as "art" nowadays, to be art in the classical sense. "Art" today all too often celebrates ugliness and perversity.

I agree, of sorts. Some of it is really good, but disturbing, none the less. I don't think you can refuse to call it art, because it conveys unpleasant emotions.

There is some kind of filter which seems to happen in music, which doesn't happen in painting and sculpture. Cavalleria Rusticana is rather tragic, but still beautiful. Dalí's work can be very unpleasant, but I don't know that it could not be thought of as art. Büchel merely places objects in various places, but there's something there. (Of course, all architects do is shape concrete to get the Guggenheim, so...)

[Darrell]

Tossing a crucifix in a beaker of urine is not art. Sticking a bullwhip up one's fundament and taking a photo of it is not art.

I was an art major my first time in college. I never met such a bunch of self-important blowhards in my life. I sometimes think that when and if I retire, maybe I'll take up painting again, and paint pretty pictures just for my own amusement.

[Aglifter]

See, I think that's the problem. To be good, I think artist HAVE to be artists. Some art schools are useful - but I only think great art comes from people who will do so, regardless.

Obviously, it takes instruction to master current technique - but art instruction, and culinary instruction, might be the biggest cons in the higher education system.

[Netpackrat]

As for the Rebellion, thank you for making my point for me. The Confederacy was an evil state, based on evil, dedicated to preserving evil, led by a class of very evil men. In the course of their evil, they forever discredited by association many otherwise good and vital principles in American political thought so they are now lost (to our great and lasting harm). Well Done!

Well said.

[blackeagle603]

To the OP, maybe or maybe not, but either way ultimately not for long but the sublime quickly gets perverted. Maybe that's just the low cal Margueritas talking...

If the current state of art is an indication then there's a correlation between decline of a civilization and it's art. There's some great stuff out there but a lot of chaff to sort through too.

I don't completely understand the artist sub culture but do observe it from near by. Dear Niece is an MFA teaching at university -- just left teaching in Seattle for WWU in Bellingham. She's truly a wonderful soul and it comes through in her art. She's brought me to near tears with some of her stuff. Genius in organizing shows for others...