More info or Iran abducting US Sailors?

[Wrenchbender1]

Would it have produced a worse outcome? I don't see how, the outcome that did happen was the worst possible one. Had they shot it up with the Iranians and been wiped out it would have been a better outcome.

I'm not so sure. There's no doubt that this was a huge national embarrassment, as well as showing our military asleep at the switch. But if they had stitched up 4-5 Iranian gunboats, in Iranian territorial waters, less than 2 miles from Iranian soil, at best we'd look like we were trying to create our own Gleiwitz incident, assuming the Iranians backed down, and at worst we might have ended up with another war in our lap.

[Vonz90]

Those boats had every right to be there (even if they were there by mistake). It is called the Right of Innocent Passage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_passage US warships (and others) occasionally do this on purpose (to both allied, neutral and hostile national waters) to exercise this right.

In short, they had every right to be there, the Iranians had not right to stop, detain or otherwise interfere with their navigation, and the boats had every right to defend themselves if the Iranians attempted to stop them.

As I said before, there was no "worse" result. The absolute worst possible result happened.

[Wrenchbender1]

I was made aware of the Right of Innocent Passage while reading through the document, but legality has nothing to do with perception in the media. We all know that they will gladly twist the facts to suit whatever agenda they're pushing, which seems to be "Drag the US through the mud at every opportunity". Personally, I believe that we would have been made to look like bigger asses if we opened up on them. As for the Iranian's impression of our military, I really couldn't give two shits. If/When we ever get into a shooting war with them, overconfidence is a killer.

I'm not trying to change opinions, just sharing mine.

[First Shirt]

It's not the Iranians that I worry about so much, it's every other Third World sh*thole that has a coastline, that thinks it's okay to f**k with the Americans, because they're spineless dweebs, who don't have a set of balls in a whole boatload.

[Wrenchbender1]

It's not the Iranians that I worry about so much, it's every other Third World sh*thole that has a coastline, that thinks it's okay to f**k with the Americans, because they're spineless dweebs, who don't have a set of balls in a whole boatload.

Very good point. Just imagine their surprise when when meet a crew with their shit wired tight, which I think will be much more likely after the Navy analyses this incident and addresses their command, training, and procedural deficiencies.

[Kommander]

Back in the time of Nelson it was considered honorable for a ship to surrender without firing a shot if it was clear that it could neither flee nor give a good accounting of itself in battle IE a single frigate hemmed in by several ships of the line. I have not read the reports but until I find time to do so I can't dismiss out of hand the crews surender as being contrary to their duties. However it does look like there were a good deal of mistakes leading up to that point and that some officers may need to be court marshaled for those.

[First Shirt]

Just imagine their surprise when when meet a crew with their shit wired tight, which I think will be much more likely after the Navy analyses this incident and addresses their command, training, and procedural deficiencies.

But how likely is that, under the current mis-administration?

[Vonz90]

Loosing your command without firing a shot (or even have the other side fire a shot) is the worst thing that could happen. Even back in the age of sale, they may surrender if their case was untenable, but they would at least fire one perfunctory shot for the sake of honor.

But that aside, you make the other side escalate. You SOS for support, you maneuver, you man your guns, you get on the bridge to bridge and tell them that you are a US warship and any attempt to board will be met by force. While this is going on you should be destroying crypto (you should have been practicing this and had a list of precedence for destruction). You make them have to escalate, because you don't know that they won't back down if they have to. Yes, we don't want to get shot, neither do they. Man the god damn guns and show them you will not be trifled with - you are a mother fucking US Navy warship. This is your fucking job!

I have done small boat ops in the NAG. I am not speaking theoretically. This is your fracking job and if you don't take it seriously, then you are disgracing the uniform.

Maybe none of that works and you get taken anyway. Okay, that is the fortune of war. On the other hand, maybe they back down. Maybe you delay things until you get support from big Navy and they run away rather than take it in the ass from an F18 fired Harpoon. Maybe they capture one boat but not the other. You don't know if you don't try.

[First Shirt]

Totally agree, but that's not what today's Navy is being taught. The Pueblo was burning classified as the NorKs came over the gunnels, but we don't teach that anymore. One of the Marines in the Pueblo crew cracked under the beatings, and he tried to drown himself in the honey bucket. Can you honestly see any of today's crewmembers doing that?

And under the current "leadership" would that even be noteworthy? Or would they just think he was stupid?

[Vonz90]

Totally agree, but that's not what today's Navy is being taught. The Pueblo was burning classified as the NorKs came over the gunnels, but we don't teach that anymore. One of the Marines in the Pueblo crew cracked under the beatings, and he tried to drown himself in the honey bucket. Can you honestly see any of today's crewmembers doing that?

And under the current "leadership" would that even be noteworthy? Or would they just think he was stupid?

My last deployed was 2010, and yes I could. Sailors will do it, but they have to know it is expected and train for it. Not doing so is a failure in leadership. I have seen fucked up units, they have always been out there. Failure has to hurt more than doing your duty- that is the only way to minimize it.

My last deployment was on the ground in A'stan. I went there to do a staff job and ended up commanding a force protection group. They didn't do that because it was running so hot - they wanted me to fix it. Same crap applies, make the expectations known, train the right way and get rid of the non-performers. It is not fancy but it works.

These clowns didn't do a navigation brief, didn't know their operational chain of command, didn't have a coms plan or a reaction plan. Negligence doesn't even begin to describe it.