Turks shoot down Russian jet

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g-man
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Re: Turks shoot down Russian jet

Post by g-man »

[Love those guys!]

Translate it to Turkish, swap Iranian for Russian, and it's about right. In another bit of coincidental comedy, Dos Gringos are Viper drivers, and it was a Turkish F-16 that kicked this off. So at least they got that part right.
Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum
Greg
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Re: Turks shoot down Russian jet

Post by Greg »

Durham68 wrote:I'm more concerned about the US backed rebel groups shooting at the pilots and now taking down a russian rescue helicopter. Someone tell me this isn't going to turn into a proxy war.

[strike]http://news.yahoo.com/turkmen-forces-sy ... 18517.html[/strike]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-2 ... kish-media

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... wn-6891003
The whole situation is already an interlocking series of proxy wars, and has been from the start.

Which shouldn't be too disturbing, as the entire Cold War was an endless series of proxy wars. Those are old hat. You just need to take care that the primaries never engage each other directly, in an undeniable (we fought Russians directly during the Cold War, but always in a deniable way) fashion.

I find Turkey's position here extremely interesting.

ISIS is their proxy, in several different ways.

One is the obvious, as a proxy against the Kurds.
But they're also using ISIS as a proxy against the West, and as a proxy to spin up a Caliphate.

Turkey is enormously enjoying watching ISIS humiliate the ineffectual West, and in fact the current immigrant crisis has at least partly been manufactured by Turkey. (Which Western leaders are playing along with, furthering the humiliation.)

They're also watching what happens w.r.t the Caliphate. They'd like the concept to take off, but they don't want to be the ones to first float the idea - that's too risky.

Once ISIS serves its purpose at Turkey's proxy, humiliating the hapless West (decreasing the power and prestige of the West and increasing that of the Islamic world), and by merely continuing to exist establishing the idea that the Caliphate is now a real thing again, Turkey will crush them utterly and mercilessly.

ISIS has an Achilles heel- they're vulnerable to cohesive ground forces. If there's one thing Turkey has it's large quantities of semi-modern ground forces that are more than willing to give and receive casualties. Turkey may lack logistics, but they don't have to go far to get the job done.

Once ISIS is crushed, all the prestige ISIS gained by staying alive and continuing to humiliate the West will accrue to Turkey. As well, leadership of the reestablished Caliphate will pass to Turkey as well.

This grand plan falls apart if Russia gets their nose too far inside the tent.

I'm not entirely sure where the US stands in all this. So far we've played along exactly as Turkey might wish, but we've also been playing along exactly as Iran might wish and there will come a time when those two will come into direct conflict and I'm not sure our leadership has thought that far ahead.
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Darrell
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Re: Turks shoot down Russian jet

Post by Darrell »

Is it still Bush's fault?

:roll:
Eppur si muove--Galileo
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Jericho941
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Re: Turks shoot down Russian jet

Post by Jericho941 »

g-man wrote:In another bit of coincidental comedy, Dos Gringos are Viper drivers, and it was a Turkish F-16 that kicked this off. So at least they got that part right.
Yep, that's why I was reminded of that song.
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randy
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Re: Turks shoot down Russian jet

Post by randy »

Jericho941 wrote:Well, to some degree, Dos Gringos predicted this.
You should have seen the Polocks when they got to cross the Rhine
:lol: :lol:
...even before I read MHI, my response to seeing a poster for the stars of the latest Twilight movies was "I see 2 targets and a collaborator".
Aesop
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Re: Turks shoot down Russian jet

Post by Aesop »

1) Putin, being Putin, figured that everyone else would be as cowed as Obozo.
2) The Turks were in a shooting war with Russian military forces on their shared border pretty much every day from 1945-1950.
3) They are nobody's bitch
4) They have long memories
5) NATO either responds, or the alliance crumbles, the Baltics are under attack by Wednesday, and Germany, Italy, and the Swiss will be doing nuclear weapons tests by close of business next Friday. The Czech Republic and Poland by the following Monday. Now it's 1914, except it's all nuclear.
5a) faced with the prospect of global thermonuclear war, if Obozo tries to do his usual drop-our-collective-national-pants for the other team, there will be a military coup here, and his seatbelt on Marine One will have a sudden failure to lock at about 5000' over the Chesapeake on his next return to the White House, coincidentally at the same time the portside entry hatch lock fails while the bird is in a sharp left bank; and VP Biden will accidentally get run over while jogging on the grounds of the Naval Observatory. By a semi driven by Navy Seals. And a dozen follow on semis, just to be safe. Acting President Ryan will be given about 5 minutes to decide that honoring the NATO alliance is in our national interest, or risk falling off the roof of his congressional office building.
6) When you've invaded someone's territory dozens of times, and you've been told 5+ times to GTFO of their airspace, maybe you want to GTFO of their airspace
7) Parachuting amidst the people you were strafing and napalming a few minutes earlier has a very poor life expectancy for pilots (cf. North Vietnam circa 1965-1973)


Given 1-7 above, the likeliest response from our State Department, even with Lurch in charge, is liable to be a rather diplomatic version of:
Toughski shitski, comrades.
Best not fly over other people's countries without their permission. Just saying.
And hey, Vlad baby, it's not like it was
an airliner full of innocent civilians that the Turks shot down, right?
And BTW, Prime Minister Netanyahu sends the IAF's warm regards, and reminds you that Israel hasn't had a good game of Israelis vs. MiGs since 1973, so they're a little itchy to try you on for size if you should happen to lose your way down south. And the reason there aren't any Syrian Air Force jets around to speak of, is that most of them are scattered all over the Bekaa Valley since 1983. They seem to have a pretty good sense of where their borders are now, so maybe you want to invite them along in case you get lost again.
Happy landings.
"There are four types of homicide: felonious, accidental, justifiable, and praiseworthy." -Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
toad
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Re: Turks shoot down Russian jet

Post by toad »

Meanwhile, Obama states that Turkey has the right to defend its airspace....and as soon as he finishes the conference on global warming, he'll send someone to hold Erdogan's coat, probably right after the Russian missile cruiser has flushed its magazine. Of course if the cruiser reloads at sea it may take a while.
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Netpackrat
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Re: Turks shoot down Russian jet

Post by Netpackrat »

For Thanksgiving in Russia, Turkey shoot YOU.
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toad
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Re: Turks shoot down Russian jet

Post by toad »

Putin is going the sanctions route on Turkey. It seems that Turkey has a number of workers in Russia, sell a bunch of stuff to Russia, and depends on transport across and through zones that are controlled by Russia. Also a Rabid Nationalist Russian is reported to have said Putin should nuke Istanbul.
Now Erdy Gurdy is trying to talk to Putin but Putin won't take his calls.
Putin is moving armed forces up to its borders with Turkey and has not only moved one of its Missile Cruiser off shore of Syria but also put some S-400 anti-aircraft missiles at a base it has in Syria.
Meanwhile Obama is still leading with his behind.
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