9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

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Precision
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9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Post by Precision »

I was bored and was looking up the characteristics of these calibers.

For comparisons sake: (all +/- 124 grain)

9x19 consistently in the 1150 - 1200 FPS range
9x21 consistently in the 1225 - 1275 FPS range
.38 super consistently in the 1300 - 1350 FPS range
9x23 consistently in the 1300 - 1350 FPS range

.357 magnum consistently in the 1500 - 1600 FPS range
... with a couple WAY higher -- 22 gr H110 at 1966 FPS being the highest
... not counting for durability of the actual bullet - that is 30-30 territory.

For comparisons sake: (all +/- 148 grain)

9x19 consistently in the 1000 - 1050 FPS range
9x21 consistently in the 1100 - 1150 FPS range
.38 super consistently in the 1150 - 1200 FPS range
9x23 consistently in the 1300 FPS range

.357 magnum consistently in the 1350 - 1450 FPS range
... with a couple WAY higher -- 17.2 gr H110 at 1691 being the highest

First Question are those top end loads with a 6 inch barrel or a 16inch (or longer carbine)

second, why bother with 9x21. In exchange for a custom gun you buy roughly 100 FPS extra. Purely a competition round?

9x23 (and .38 Super) makes a lot more sense although there is a note on the 147 gr load info that says the bullet is too lightly constructed to properly utilize the velocity in the JHP they used. Severe fragmentation.

ETA - all load information fromHandloads.com
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Aglifter
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Post by Aglifter »

A) Your speeds look a little low for 9x23 and 38 Super, major.

B) I suspect a HAP bullet might hold up, if you can find one in 147. I tried some 125gr HAP out on water jugs, loaded to major, and they remained intact, and made it into the cardboard behind the third water jug.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Post by Aglifter »

9x23 is an excellent cartridge, and a Jeff Cooper design. It can take tremendous pressures if you wish to load it to that level (it's cut-down 223 brass.)

It would have solved quite a few issues for USPSA/IPSC, but it didn't work out.
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mousegun
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Post by mousegun »

The source info is shakey at best. Start by looking at factory spec.s; they at least usually are based on a SAAMI standard barrel length. The 357 data for example is out of a carbine not a revolver. It doesn't compare to say 9X23 which is not to my knowledge offered in any carbine platform.

If you look at various reloading manuals, you will see some variations in barrel length for any given caliber. You will also see some drastic differences in load data for any given caliber too.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Post by mousegun »

Aglifter wrote:9x23 is an excellent cartridge, and a Jeff Cooper design. It can take tremendous pressures if you wish to load it to that level (it's cut-down 223 brass.)

It would have solved quite a few issues for USPSA/IPSC, but it didn't work out.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Post by randy »

second, why bother with 9x21. In exchange for a custom gun you buy roughly 100 FPS extra. Purely a competition round?
in the US, not much. In countries that ban civilian possession of "military" ammo....
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Aglifter
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Post by Aglifter »

It was more a supply issue, than a noise issue - shorty open guns are LOUD all on their own.

Winchester, and someone who claimed to have invented the cartridge got in a law suit over royalties (I think the private party might have created the name 9x23, but, TMK, the first version of the cartridge was the "Super Cooper", created by Jeff Cooper.)

It would have solved any safety concerns over making major, even under the old 175PF standard, possible feeding problems w. 38 super can have, and got around any military caliber concerns - it would have also made an easy caliber to use when matches have "match ammo" - some foreign matches tend to do this, but sometimes the ammo won't work in everyone's guns/won't make PF in everyone's guns.

Of course, I also think limited should be w. 10MM - I was told there are too many variations in brass length.
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Precision
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Post by Precision »

Buffalo Bore has some .357 125 gr at 1700 FPS and some 158 gr at 1475 FPS

................has some .38 Super +P 125 gr at 1350 FPS and some 147 gr at 1150 FPS

................some 9x19 +P+ FMJ FN 24 gr "penetrators" at 1300 FPS

It has been suggested that the ramped up 9mm cases are to replicate .357 performance, but they seem to be quite a bit low even with the extended cases.
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Aglifter
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Post by Aglifter »

9MM Major usually cuts it pretty close to the 160PF, and it a fairly risky cartridge. Personally, I think it was probably discrimination against the 38 Super, and wanting to allow a use for the 40 S&W, but limited, supposedly, has a .40 caliber requirement to preclude people trying to load "stock" 9MM guns up to major.


Those 38 Super +p speeds are for minor - Taurus, and probably Colt, max out at 125 gr. and 1350 fps - which makes 168 PF, and modern major.

A more typical major load is 125 gr at 1400 - 1450 if you're loading like the 175 PF era.
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HTRN
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Post by HTRN »

9x23 was one of several efforts made to solve some of the headaches of 38 Supers semi rimless design. If you've got a 38 super, you can probably run 9x23 in your gun without mods. The other two notable attempts to deal with the occasionally persnickty 38 Super is 38 TJ(Todd Jarrett) and 38 Super Comp. They'res also a .38 Super Lapua. They all fall under the basic category of "Rimless 38 Super", with often very minor dimensional variations. For example, going by this page, the only difference externally between Starlines Super Comp and TJ brass is the diameter of the extractor cut.

If you want to push something faster than the previously mentioned velocities, there's 9x25 Dillon - a bottlenecked 10mm(think the same relationship between 357 Sig and .40S&W). It will reportedly drive a 124 grn bullet at 1700 ft/sec. Be warned - the cartridge was originally developed to easily meet the old, higher "Major" power factor, but was quickly dropped because it had the nasty habit of eating parts, giving tendonitis, and was extremely loud in compensated guns. Add in the mag capacity lost compared 9mm diameter cartridges, and it's fall from grace is fairly easy to understand.
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