help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

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Precision
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help me to understand a custom rifle build (updated 11/18)

Post by Precision » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:56 pm

I am looking at having Kreiger do a full fitting:
Full Fitting:
Full fitting of your new Krieger Barrel to your receiver. This requires that you send us all of your parts which are necessary for the fitting. Click here to download our parts send-in check list. Fill this out and send it with your parts.
Price:
With Extractor Cut: $290
https://www.kriegerbarrels.com/files/bo ... cedure.pdf

So If I send them the items they are requesting and get them to do the barrel, what else still needs to be done by someone else?

Items I am considering so far:

Stiller Predator action with 20 MOA rail - cut for Wyatt bottom metal
Krieger barrel 28" #17 varmint contour 1:8 twist in 7mm mag -- likely running 168 and 180 gr
Mcmillan A3-5 or just an A5 - not sure yet
Timney trigger - 533-16 1 lb its a two stage with 1.5#, then 1# -- very willing hear alternatives and why.
Wyatt bottom metal with 10 round mags
a good set of ring -- Have not determined which yet
Vortex PST 4x16x50 FFP
Harris or other quality / portable bipod

All kitted up it should weigh in at about 16#
Last edited by Precision on Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HTRN
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Post by HTRN » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:26 am

I think you're making a mistake in some very fundamental ways in component selection.
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Precision
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Post by Precision » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:54 am

HTRN wrote:I think you're making a mistake in some very fundamental ways in component selection.

ok that may well be true. Help me to understand what and why.

My goal is to build a precise rifle that will do 600-1000 yds. I am a semi competent 600 yd shooter now, roughly MOA currently. I am hoping with a good rifle and quite a bit more practice to become capable of better at 600 yds and roughly MOA at 1000.

I am choosing 7mm mag because I want to be able to use the rifle in practical situations as well as benchrest or other competitions. So things like 6mm PPC are out.
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slowpoke
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Post by slowpoke » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:42 pm

HTRN wrote:I think you're making a mistake in some very fundamental ways in component selection.
Barrel/caliber and scope off, or something else?
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Steamforger
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Post by Steamforger » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:16 pm

I would be extremely wary of a 1# trigger. It just seems to be asking for trouble if you plan to do anything other than benchrest. I'm assuming "practical situations" would be putting meat on the table as 7mm Mag is an excellent, all around hunting round for N America. I do not want to be, or be anywhere near, someone covering terrain in cold, wet weather with that light a trigger. Might just be me...

The other thing, and HTRN can certainly speak more to this than I can, is nothing about benchrest is practical. Build the rifle, then go buy a Rem 700 or old M70 and use for other stuffs. Hell, get one in 7mm. At least you can share some reloading components and develop a good feel for the round. Forcing a 16# rifle with a "breathe on it and it fires" trigger into any other role seems silly.

Precision
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Post by Precision » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:16 pm

Steamforger wrote:I would be extremely wary of a 1# trigger. It just seems to be asking for trouble if you plan to do anything other than benchrest. I'm assuming "practical situations" would be putting meat on the table as 7mm Mag is an excellent, all around hunting round for N America. I do not want to be, or be anywhere near, someone covering terrain in cold, wet weather with that light a trigger. Might just be me...

The other thing, and HTRN can certainly speak more to this than I can, is nothing about benchrest is practical. Build the rifle, then go buy a Rem 700 or old M70 and use for other stuffs. Hell, get one in 7mm. At least you can share some reloading components and develop a good feel for the round. Forcing a 16# rifle with a "breathe on it and it fires" trigger into any other role seems silly.
The trigger is a 2 stage. 1.5# in the first stage and 1# in the second stage so that makes it a 2.5# trigger. Not unsafe or breath on it and fire. I shot a F-class rifle today with a 4 oz trigger. I bumped the trigger with an off finger from the side. went bang. scary. Put it in the 8 ring (by accident), but still scary.

My desire is to have a gun that I could choose to hunt / move with if needed but could also be used for long distance disciplines. Perhaps I should just go build a full on F-class gun or build a tactical shooter that weighs less and limit myself to a shorter barrel (lighter gun) and deal with slower velocities.

My precision AR (with scope and 24" barrel) is just under 12 lbs and that is quite managable to trek with.
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HTRN
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Post by HTRN » Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:00 am

Predator is the wrong answer for an action here, not tight enough. Its designed to be a replacement for Rem 700 in hunting rifles. Stillers tac action, One of Bordens offerings(LSR would be my first inclination), Defiance Machine (Deviant Tactical), or Surgeon. The latter two offer integral recoil lugs, which means a longer thread section for the barrel.

7 mag? WHY? Theres a reason why 6mil, 6.5, and 30 caliber dominate 1k, and its due to bullet selection. Personally, I'd go with 300 win mag..

If you're going with 300 win mag, going with some flavor of AICS bottom metal just makes sense. Seekins, PTG, Stiller all make one for LA 700 receivers.

A Timney on a 1k gun? Why? Why would you do that? Say it with me now "Jewell". There, that wasn't so hard, was it? :mrgreen:

Krieger is a good choice in brand, the contour you want, not so much. That countour is really better suited to something that rides in bags its entire life. A better choice would be one of the Palma contours, even with the heavy contour, you'd gain back half a pound of weight AND 2 inchs of barrel length. Another good option in barrels is Broughton, they're the current hot shit in 1k BR, with Kriger coming in at #2.

Mcmillan makes an excellent choice, but they have a huge backorder, so order the stock first. They're also not cheap, something like 600+ by the time youre done. Another option is Russo stocks, he cuts copies of the A5 in wood, and he delivers faster, at a lower price.

Vortex is a good choice in bang for your buck. Rings? Farell is one of best options for rings and mounts from a price/quality standpoint. I think a set of steel rings is under 170 from him.
Steamforger wrote:I would be extremely wary of a 1# trigger. It just seems to be asking for trouble if you plan to do anything other than benchrest. I'm assuming "practical situations" would be putting meat on the table as 7mm Mag is an excellent, all around hunting round for N America.
Shoot light triggers long enough, and "normal" triggers feel weird. If i could, I'd set my hunting rifle around 10 ounces. :ugeek:
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Precision
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Post by Precision » Sun Nov 06, 2016 4:35 am

HTRN wrote:Predator is the wrong answer for an action here, not tight enough. Its designed to be a replacement for Rem 700 in hunting rifles. Stillers tac action, One of Bordens offerings(LSR would be my first inclination), Defiance Machine (Deviant Tactical), or Surgeon. The latter two offer integral recoil lugs, which means a longer thread section for the barrel.
I meant to put Predator / Tac action. I can't find tolerance numbers / differences between the two. I will look at some of the other you mentioned as well.
HTRN wrote:7 mag? WHY? Theres a reason why 6mil, 6.5, and 30 caliber dominate 1k, and its due to bullet selection. Personally, I'd go with 300 win mag..
My original idea was to go with 6.5x284 but with reloader 17 and the new 180 gr 7mm bullets, I can get 2900ish fps with lower recoil then a 300 win and much better barrel life then a 6.5 x 284 and get pretty much the same BC.
HTRN wrote:A Timney on a 1k gun? Why? Why would you do that? Say it with me now "Jewell". There, that wasn't so hard, was it? :mrgreen:
Fair enough
HTRN wrote: Krieger is a good choice in brand, the contour you want, not so much. That countour is really better suited to something that rides in bags its entire life. A better choice would be one of the Palma contours, even with the heavy contour, you'd gain back half a pound of weight AND 2 inchs of barrel length. Another good option in barrels is Broughton, they're the current hot shit in 1k BR, with Kriger coming in at #2.
I thought breech length and thickness was quite important so I was looking for the best dimensions there. Am I wrong in that?
HTRN wrote: Mcmillan makes an excellent choice, but they have a huge backorder, so order the stock first. They're also not cheap, something like 600+ by the time youre done. Another option is Russo stocks, he cuts copies of the A5 in wood, and he delivers faster, at a lower price.
Good to know. How much do you give up in stiffness and other performance by going wood?
HTRN wrote:Vortex is a good choice in bang for your buck. Rings? Farell is one of best options for rings and mounts from a price/quality standpoint. I think a set of steel rings is under 170 from him.
I already have that scope, so I am going to use it until it becomes limiting. I will check the rings.
Steamforger wrote:I would be extremely wary of a 1# trigger. It just seems to be asking for trouble if you plan to do anything other than benchrest. I'm assuming "practical situations" would be putting meat on the table as 7mm Mag is an excellent, all around hunting round for N America.
HTRN wrote:Shoot light triggers long enough, and "normal" triggers feel weird. If i could, I'd set my hunting rifle around 10 ounces. :ugeek:
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Precision
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Post by Precision » Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:33 pm

Using Berger as the test mule

Comparing BC, velocity and drop / drift.

G7 BC for bullets

7mm .345 or .350 at 180 gr
...... .290 or .316 at 168 gr

6.5mm .304 or .310 at 140 gr

.30 cal .354 at 215 gr
....... .295 at 185 gr
......... .264 at 168gr

That seems like either a pretty substantial BC loss with corresponding hitting loss for the 6.5mm or a significant loss in BC for the same hit or a rather large recoil penalty for the same BC in the .30 caliber (in win mag) or a huge velocity loss in .308.

Published load data
7mm rem mag 180 gr runs 2850 to 2950fps with no pressure symptoms for most people at the upper end, but lets say 2900 fps (using reloader 17 Only) With retumbo or h1000 velocity maxes at 2850. Barrel life is expected to be in the 2000 to 2500 range.

6.5x284 with 140 gr is running about 2850 as well, but the lower BC and the lower weight bullet give lessor performance and that is a barrel burner by all accounts, 900-1300.

.30 cal in 300 win that 215gr can also get up to roughly 2850 fps and the bullet weight will be heavier and the BC is slightly better, but that is going to come with a fairly stiff recoil penalty. I am not sure about barrel life on this, but imagine it is not too bad. Shoulder life and rapidity of shots will be the issue.
in 308 the velocity is going to be at best 2400fps and that is just a non-starter.

Am I missing something important that the numbers don't show? It seems like the 7mm mag is the sweet spot between recoil and BC.

The berger ballistics program is down right now so I won't put up drift and drop comparisons, as I am too lazy to move the data over to another calculator right this second.
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slowpoke
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Re: help me to understand a custom rifle build

Post by slowpoke » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:04 pm

those look like sectional densities not ballistic coeffefients.
check again.
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