HundK hundreds of millions in debt

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HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Jered » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:38 pm

A major shareholder of Heckler & Koch has undertaken to provide funds in the amount of € 50 million for the capital increase, and will support the company’s efforts to refinance its 2011 9.50% Senior Secured Notes at a significantly lower debt level than currently. These funds will be provided initially in the form of a shareholder loan to be converted into share capital during the share capital increase to meet the time line of the refinancing of the 2011 9.50% Senior Secured Notes. Minority shareholders of H&K will have the possibility to subscribe for new shares on a pro-rata-basis and on the same economic terms against payment in cash.


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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby SoupOrMan » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:03 am

"OK, Helmut. New idea."

"Ja, Franz, tell me this new idea."

"We talk to the American Congress. Get a new law passed lowering the firearm ownership age to 10 and repealing the NFA. Then we sell submachineguns to everyone with a family. I call it The 'MP5s 4 Kidz' Program."

"GENIUS! We will make millions!"
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Vonz90 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Jered wrote:
A major shareholder of Heckler & Koch has undertaken to provide funds in the amount of € 50 million for the capital increase, and will support the company’s efforts to refinance its 2011 9.50% Senior Secured Notes at a significantly lower debt level than currently. These funds will be provided initially in the form of a shareholder loan to be converted into share capital during the share capital increase to meet the time line of the refinancing of the 2011 9.50% Senior Secured Notes. Minority shareholders of H&K will have the possibility to subscribe for new shares on a pro-rata-basis and on the same economic terms against payment in cash.


Remember, they hate you, and you suck.

Keep operating operationally operators.


Same problem that S&W had a few years ago. The original H&K clan were gun guys through and through and believed in making civilian versions of everything. That changed completely when they were bought by BAE in the 90's. I believe both because they were British and did not see marketing guns to civilians as a thing, but also the business model the followed generally was in selling large contracts to governments and that is what they followed with HK as well. BAE screwed them a lot and they have been recovering / floundering since they were spun off in the early 00's.

Much like S&W's corporate owners a few years ago (and many other situations I could mention) - they bought a company without realizing that the brand was actually as valuable as it was. But they want to stick with what they know (.gov sales) and ruin one of the best brands in the world which they could leverage.

Just plain stupid, but it happens all the time. The conglomerate that bought the company I work for came this close (fingers close together) to dumping our brand which is easily the strongest brand in the industry just because they wanted a "unified corporate brand" - well in this industry no one knows who you are, especially compared to the company name that invented this market. Thankfully some outside brand consultants seem to have slapped the COE/etc. enough that they relented, but WTF. It should be obvious.

I have noticed that HK are selling the SP89 now, so hopefully this is a step in the right direction. I would much rather they get back to being the old HK, the new one sucks. (... and I don't like their new products much either. Bring back the HK91/93!)

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Windy Wilson » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:22 am

This is not an unexpected result for a company that hates its biggest market and believes they suck.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Steamforger » Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:52 am

The MP-5 is a 51 year old design. It's sexy enough, but it doesn't have the lock on the SMG world like it used to. It's also a bit of a bitch to break down and clean and I'm told from people who carried them in shooty places that you have to baby the magwells lest they get dented at the worst possible time. I can also get a perfectly functional Zenith knockoff made on old machinery in Turkey for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of the MP-5.

Or, I can build a 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP or other flavor of AR using Glock mags for far less. Or, I can just go with the Sig MPX or CZ Skorpion. Or, get a Tavor in 9mm.

If they want to compete here, they need to bring new and interesting to the market in the US. MP-7s are a must. Build a G-36 here. Bring back the HK-21 and HK-11. Redesign the mag well for HK-53 and HK-33 to take a Nato mag. In fact, do anything except what they're doing now.

The C-93 was briefly tempting, but at the end of the day I could have gotten a suspect rifle (with regards to operation) that took proprietary mags, that cost more than an AR, that couldn't use as many accessories as an AR, and only performs as good as an AR in the best case. They're going to have to rely on more than Kraut Space Magic to save themselves. They're going to have to pull their "kopfe" out of their "esel" and start innovating again.

Until then, I hope they drown.

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Steamforger » Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:30 am

Update

No surprise, really.

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Jered » Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:35 am

Steamforger wrote:The C-93 was briefly tempting, but at the end of the day I could have gotten a suspect rifle (with regards to operation) that took proprietary mags, that cost more than an AR, that couldn't use as many accessories as an AR, and only performs as good as an AR in the best case. They're going to have to rely on more than Kraut Space Magic to save themselves. They're going to have to pull their "kopfe" out of their "esel" and start innovating again.

Until then, I hope they drown.


If HundK would make a 93 at a reasonable price point and which could take AR mags, that would be awfully tempting.

...but, they hate me, and I suck.

Of course, the C-93 was tempting, but, then my rational brain took over when I realized that it was made by Century.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Vonz90 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:24 pm

"If you listen closely enough, your customers will explain your business to you."- Peter Schutz, retired CEO, Porsche AG


The basic problem is that the current HK management sees their business as one thing (selling large masses of parts to governments) and as far as I can tell they consider everything else a distraction. There is nothing wrong with that per se, it was actually the business model that HK started with. The problem is that it is a high risk / reward and also kisses off some very large potential markets in the consumer side of things.

For better or worse, they have one of the best known brands in the firearms industry. They just have absolutely no idea how to leverage that into anything else. This is particularly true when it comes to long arms, I guess they sell a few pistols here and there. The HK 91/93 and MP5 platforms could all be huge sellers for them here if they put them back into production, particularly with a few updates. For that matter, make more "sporting" versions of the actions and sell them worldwide (since the black rifle thing is not as big a deal in most places not named USA).

It probably would require putting a "gun guy" who understands the market and has enough technical background to know what can and cannot be done as the head of a separate business unit that just does that. This kind of work will always be an afterthought at best to the part of the business chasing government contracts. To my knowledge they have never done that, or at least done that well.

They are far from the first company to get stuck in this situation.

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Vonz90 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:34 pm

Steamforger wrote:The MP-5 is a 51 year old design. It's sexy enough, but it doesn't have the lock on the SMG world like it used to. It's also a bit of a bitch to break down and clean and I'm told from people who carried them in shooty places that you have to baby the magwells lest they get dented at the worst possible time. I can also get a perfectly functional Zenith knockoff made on old machinery in Turkey for 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of the MP-5.



I am not a SMG fan in general. However, I had two guys in my unit for my last deployment carry MP5's. They worked well enough so far as I know. Shot them on the range a couple times when we practiced (RHIP) - fun stuff.

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby MiddleAgedKen » Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:14 am

Vonz90 wrote:The basic problem is that the current HK management sees their business as one thing (selling large masses of parts to governments) and as far as I can tell they consider everything else a distraction. There is nothing wrong with that per se, it was actually the business model that HK started with. The problem is that it is a high risk / reward and also kisses off some very large potential markets in the consumer side of things.


Rather like IBM, which never wanted to be in the consumer personal computer business and was dragged into it kicking and screaming. When the business became sufficiently commoditized to give them the excuse, they sold off to Lenovo and Lexmark and got outta Dodge.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby HTRN » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:24 am

Vonz90 wrote:It probably would require putting a "gun guy" who understands the market and has enough technical background to know what can and cannot be done as the head of a separate business unit that just does that.

They had one, Wayne Weber was the head of HK-USA, and they fired him. :roll:
Last edited by HTRN on Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Greg » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:46 am

Vonz90 wrote:
"If you listen closely enough, your customers will explain your business to you."- Peter Schutz, retired CEO, Porsche AG


The basic problem is that the current HK management sees their business as one thing (selling large masses of parts to governments) and as far as I can tell they consider everything else a distraction. There is nothing wrong with that per se, it was actually the business model that HK started with. The problem is that it is a high risk / reward and also kisses off some very large potential markets in the consumer side of things.

For better or worse, they have one of the best known brands in the firearms industry. They just have absolutely no idea how to leverage that into anything else. This is particularly true when it comes to long arms, I guess they sell a few pistols here and there. The HK 91/93 and MP5 platforms could all be huge sellers for them here if they put them back into production, particularly with a few updates. For that matter, make more "sporting" versions of the actions and sell them worldwide (since the black rifle thing is not as big a deal in most places not named USA).

It probably would require putting a "gun guy" who understands the market and has enough technical background to know what can and cannot be done as the head of a separate business unit that just does that. This kind of work will always be an afterthought at best to the part of the business chasing government contracts. To my knowledge they have never done that, or at least done that well.

They are far from the first company to get stuck in this situation.


What I want to know is, why in the everloving hell are their long arms so EXPENSIVE? They're all stampings, they were *designed* to be cheap and easy to make, the descendants of designs produced by wartime industry and engineers who had enforced experience operating in CAVES.

ARs are much harder to make and require much more advanced techniques.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby HTRN » Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:57 am

Greg wrote:What I want to know is, why in the everloving hell are their long arms so EXPENSIVE? They're all stampings, they were *designed* to be cheap and easy to make, the descendants of designs produced by wartime industry and engineers who had enforced experience operating in CAVES.

ARs are much harder to make and require much more advanced techniques.

Production volume - Continental prpbably spits out more lowers in a week, than HK does in a year.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Greg » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:25 am

HTRN wrote:
Greg wrote:What I want to know is, why in the everloving hell are their long arms so EXPENSIVE? They're all stampings, they were *designed* to be cheap and easy to make, the descendants of designs produced by wartime industry and engineers who had enforced experience operating in CAVES.

ARs are much harder to make and require much more advanced techniques.

Production volume - Continental prpbably spits out more lowers in a week, than HK does in a year.


You need volume to run a stamping plant that's already paid for?

You'd think just the machining steps on an AR receiver half, upper or lower, would be more expensive than running a few stampings. Not to mention the casting, or the anodizing which is notoriously tricky.

But maybe I'm assuming too much.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Vonz90 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:01 am

Price is completely different than cost.

Actual HK 91 and 93 rifles have a scarcity premium.

If you look at MKE and PTR (or other) versions of the 93 and 91 respectively they are ballpark to the various AR prices.

If HK really wanted to after that market, th should not attack it on price. In the 80's they came out with a modular versions of ther rifles that took STANAG magazines. (They were strangled in the crib by the import ban.) Update those and sell them as premium products and the sell the old versions as classic models.

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby HTRN » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:08 am

The other thing to remember is theyre are different goals for german large corps, than US ones, notably, that they seem to largly exist to provide comfortable well paying jobs to germans - making a profit is secondary. It comes from having the german government having their fingers in every german megacorp.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Netpackrat » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:59 am

HTRN wrote:The other thing to remember is theyre are different goals for german large corps, than US ones, notably, that they seem to largly exist to provide comfortable well paying jobs to germans - making a profit is secondary. It comes from having the german government having their fingers in every german megacorp.


It sounds like you are saying the reports of National Socialism's death have been greatly exaggerated.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Greg » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:27 pm

Vonz90 wrote:Price is completely different than cost.

Actual HK 91 and 93 rifles have a scarcity premium.

If you look at MKE and PTR (or other) versions of the 93 and 91 respectively they are ballpark to the various AR prices.

If HK really wanted to after that market, th should not attack it on price. In the 80's they came out with a modular versions of ther rifles that took STANAG magazines. (They were strangled in the crib by the import ban.) Update those and sell them as premium products and the sell the old versions as classic models.


HK asking so much for them reduces their potential pool of buyers. That's my whole point. The premium (hell, beyond premium into extravagant, like a Vertu phone) pricing cuts their potential sales to a trickle.

Their costs on the roller locked family of all stamping long arms ought to be quite low.

They ask less, they dramatically expand the pool of potential buyers. They could sell a *lot* of those things. They might make less per unit, but more than make up for it on volume.

The people selling clones seem to be making a better living than the original. Hint.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby HTRN » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:58 pm

Netpackrat wrote:
HTRN wrote:The other thing to remember is theyre are different goals for german large corps, than US ones, notably, that they seem to largly exist to provide comfortable well paying jobs to germans - making a profit is secondary. It comes from having the german government having their fingers in every german megacorp.


It sounds like you are saying the reports of National Socialism's death have been greatly exaggerated.

It seems that way, doesnt it?

They also have the nasty habit of buying foreign corps, like Chrysler, squeezing every penny out of it, then dumping the corpse. In order to support jobs at home. They did it to Chrysler, Airbourne Express, and many more.

Short answer: if your employer is bought by germans, update your resume.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Vonz90 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:08 pm

Greg wrote:
Vonz90 wrote:Price is completely different than cost.

Actual HK 91 and 93 rifles have a scarcity premium.

If you look at MKE and PTR (or other) versions of the 93 and 91 respectively they are ballpark to the various AR prices.

If HK really wanted to after that market, th should not attack it on price. In the 80's they came out with a modular versions of ther rifles that took STANAG magazines. (They were strangled in the crib by the import ban.) Update those and sell them as premium products and the sell the old versions as classic models.


HK asking so much for them reduces their potential pool of buyers. That's my whole point. The premium (hell, beyond premium into extravagant, like a Vertu phone) pricing cuts their potential sales to a trickle.

Their costs on the roller locked family of all stamping long arms ought to be quite low.

They ask less, they dramatically expand the pool of potential buyers. They could sell a *lot* of those things. They might make less per unit, but more than make up for it on volume.

The people selling clones seem to be making a better living than the original. Hint.


HK has not sold roller lock long arms to non-governmental customers since the 80's. So yes the clone makers are making more by definition.

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Vonz90 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:16 pm

HTRN wrote:
Netpackrat wrote:
HTRN wrote:The other thing to remember is theyre are different goals for german large corps, than US ones, notably, that they seem to largly exist to provide comfortable well paying jobs to germans - making a profit is secondary. It comes from having the german government having their fingers in every german megacorp.


It sounds like you are saying the reports of National Socialism's death have been greatly exaggerated.

It seems that way, doesnt it?

They also have the nasty habit of buying foreign corps, like Chrysler, squeezing every penny out of it, then dumping the corpse. In order to support jobs at home. They did it to Chrysler, Airbourne Express, and many more.

Short answer: if your employer is bought by germans, update your resume.


That is funny relative to Chrysler - They were next to bankruptcy when Daimler bought them, they dumped a ton of money into them and the more or less gave them away when they realized they were just throwing good money after bad.

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby HTRN » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:27 pm

Vonz90 wrote:That is funny relative to Chrysler - They were next to bankruptcy when Daimler bought them, they dumped a ton of money into them and the more or less gave them away when they realized they were just throwing good money after bad.

They were near bankruptcy at the end, at the time of the merger they were making a billion a quarter, and had 12 billion in cash.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Vonz90 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:44 pm

HTRN wrote:
Vonz90 wrote:That is funny relative to Chrysler - They were next to bankruptcy when Daimler bought them, they dumped a ton of money into them and the more or less gave them away when they realized they were just throwing good money after bad.

They were near bankruptcy at the end, at the time of the merger they were making a billion a quarter, and had 12 billion in cash.


They were making some money at the time, Chrysler has been bouncing between boom and bust since the 80's and always look great right up until they are going bust because they are not big enough to get the economies of scale they need to play in the markets they play in. So they were way short of what they needed and they were also trying to fight off a corporate raider takeover (from Kirk Kerkorian).

They went to Daimler and asked them to be a white knight. Daimler should have walked away, instead they bought them for $36B only to pay $650M to Cerberus to get them to take them off of their hands a few years later. The main blame to push towards Daimler is that they did not do their due diligence and I also don't think they thought through how exactly they would combine a value car maker with a luxury brand without tainting the luxury brand (news flash, they couldn't).

In the end, Daimler is really a truck and heavy equipment company that plays in the luxury car market a bit (just in the US, they own Detroit Diesel, Freightliner, Western Star, Thomas Built Buses - for years). They did not know a freaking thing about that side of the market and worse they did know what they did not know.

If they wanted to screw over Chrysler to help themselves, they did a very poor job of it. What they did was screw over their shareholder for no gain to anyone.

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby HTRN » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:55 pm

They did the same thing to freightliner a few years earlier, and have only recently recovered.

Most of the blame can be laid at Eatons feet, the man who iacocca said his appointment as ceo was the biggest mistake of his career.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Vonz90 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:17 pm

HTRN wrote:They did the same thing to freightliner a few years earlier, and have only recently recovered.

Most of the blame can be laid at Eatons feet, the man who iacocca said his appointment as ceo was the biggest mistake of his career.


They still own Freightliner and have continuously since 1981, so I am not sure where you are going with this.

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Rich Jordan » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:51 pm

I can't find it right now but there was a set of magazine editorials about what MB did to Chrysler, especially after 'Dr. Z' left.

They not only covered the billions in cash reserves and how they were used up by corporate, but also went through pre and post car lines, showing changes in design and comparing material quality, etc. It was pretty much downgrades across the board, pushing Daimler's older chassis and drivetrains 'down' to the American division, etc. They made a point that Daimler boned Chrysler in a lot of ways, mostly beancounter related.

We and our family had Chrysler cars that were pre and several year post Daimler. The interior quality of the relatively higher line car and truck post Daimler was absolutely lower, more cheap plastic-y, more 'uniform for easier molding' and less stylized than the pre Daimler cars.

Daimler made its own decisions concerning the cheapening of the Mercedes brand, somewhat concurrently. I saw Top Gear say they (Mercedes Benz) thought there cars were so over-engineered that they could get away with winding things back to (more than good enough, but not as good as before) and getting thwacked by their customers.

We were shareholders in Chrysler (not a big stake) so we got all the annual reports and some additional documentation during the DC days, and the sheer volume of hatred of America and American things, and 'evil Chrysler makes tanks (years after the defense division was sold off) from German shareholders was something to see.

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Vonz90 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:04 pm

I was doing tier 1 engineering for Chrysler both pre and post merger. Chrysler was a screwed up mess in both cases. How they made anything that even turned on much less ran for a bit was surprising. I did not notice it getting any worse or better pre/post. They were (and are) systematically fucked up - particularly in terms of engineering decisions being made by bean counters who have absolutely no idea of the actual consequences of the decisions they were making. It was mind boggling bad.

For comparison; Ford is kind of screwed up in that way, but to much less of a degree.
I have not worked enough with GM to say about them on the design side. Production wise, they are always chasing nickels. Actually, that is a problem with all of the US companies, it is hard to maintain quality when you are constantly trying to take money out of the product (and thus always churning the design/production).

Of the Japanese, Honda and Toyota are a pain in the butt to deal with sometimes, but at least their priorities are more or less in line with reality and best of all, once they have something that works well they leave it alone. Nissan is a bunch of dishonest, backstabbing SOB's who somehow produce mediocre cars in their spare time. Mitsubishi is all chaos all the time.

Of the Germans, I only ever worked with BMW much. They are very much a pain the butt to work with, but they don't quibble about a price much if you can show them it will give them a better result, so I will not fault them on that.

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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Jered » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:38 pm

Vonz90 wrote:
Of the Japanese, Honda and Toyota are a pain in the butt to deal with sometimes, but at least their priorities are more or less in line with reality and best of all, once they have something that works well they leave it alone. Nissan is a bunch of dishonest, backstabbing SOB's who somehow produce mediocre cars in their spare time. Mitsubishi is all chaos all the time.


What about Subaru/Fuji Heavy Industries?
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Vonz90
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Vonz90 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:03 pm

Jered wrote:
Vonz90 wrote:
Of the Japanese, Honda and Toyota are a pain in the butt to deal with sometimes, but at least their priorities are more or less in line with reality and best of all, once they have something that works well they leave it alone. Nissan is a bunch of dishonest, backstabbing SOB's who somehow produce mediocre cars in their spare time. Mitsubishi is all chaos all the time.


What about Subaru/Fuji Heavy Industries?


I have not worked with them, so I do not know.

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Jered
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Jered » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:02 am

Damn, I was hoping for some good info.
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Netpackrat » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:05 am

Generally OK cars that are very popular in states with significant winter weather. Used to have bulletproof engines but not so much in recent years.
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Jered
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Re: HundK hundreds of millions in debt

Postby Jered » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:14 am

Netpackrat wrote:Generally OK cars that are very popular in states with significant winter weather. Used to have bulletproof engines but not so much in recent years.


I drive a Subaru. I think they've fixed the head gasket thing.

Lesbians!

Lesbians drive them, too, right?
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