12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

The place for general discussion about guns, gun (and gun parts) technology discussion, gun reviews, and gun specific range reports; and shooting, training, techniques, reviews and reports.
hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:46 am

I'm visiting here to talk about the 12ga From Hell and
other developements it has led to.Nice site you folks have.
I'm with a group of experimenters passing on the years of
info and pictures to all gun nuts around the net, about
12ga From Hell and other big bores. We have posted some
round the net about our many ideas we have implemented for
12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga,28ga,20ga,16ga, and my 585HE/700HE wildcats.

The idea for the 12ga FH, and the first gun built for it,
was Rob Garnicks on the AR Forums. In the first picture,
a heavy duty Borchardt falling block. He has gotten
1000 gr to 3000 fps in this, a high pressure action.

Then I and others joined in and set up a big variety
of guns for the case. The case, a brass case 3.85" long,
made from BMG brass expanded out with straight sides,
to take 12ga .729" dia slugs and a 12ga size rim added on.
Also we get turned brass cases from Rocky Mtn Cart of that
length and shorter. Many guys used 3.5" cases, as standard
reamers are available, and 12ga 3.5" guns are available,
so that they could shoot 3.5" plastic also. Our 3.85" chamber
and 3.5" will shoot any of the shorter cases.
In our work we found ways to get over a third more velocity
in shorter plastic and brass cases using slower powders
than regular fast shotgun powders. We reloaded fast
rifle powder, IMR 4759, IMR 4227, in larger amounts
and got 600gr hard lead slugs over 1800 fps in 24" barrels,
and were lab tested to be at or under magnum shotgun
pressures that are used in factory 3.5" loads.


More pictures, the 2nd showing long brass 12ga FH case with
regular 12ga case. Other 12ga FH guns are next,3rd Nef Ultra
heavy barrel with length added, 4th Nef 8ga made by boring
out heavy barrel 10ga, 5th FBW falling block,my 585HE belted
case.The FBW has a 20ga 3.5" extra barrel also.
.And we also worked with 8ga,4ga, in falling blocks, 20ga,16ga
in break actions, and my wildcat 585HE,700HE in various actions.

6th picture is our big cartridges from 2 bore on down, in
order-2bore- 4ga- 8ga- 10ga- 12ga FH- 700HE--700H 3.25- 30-06..
7th picture is 4bore falling block we built on our design.
Our 4bore is 1 inch bore.We also helped in getting the barrel
threads larger in the new large MRC PH bolt action to fit our
cases like the 700H 3.25" shown in 8th picture in MRC.

9th picture is an 8bore bolt gun a guy on another forum built
from scratch.Last is Savage 210 that Bret in MN set up with
heavy barrel and a recoil reducer put into the hollow stock.
Shown with boot off so you can see the build. He has gotten
saboted 500gr slugs over 3000 in this.We will post a bunch
more info and we welcome your ideas and help. And we'll give
all the help we can to folks ..Ed Hubel

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Netpackrat
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 12186
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:04 am
Location: Anchorage, AK

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Netpackrat » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:44 pm

Dang, heck of a first post. My shoulder cringes in terror at the sight of those creations.
Cognosce teipsum et disce pati

"People come and go in our lives, especially the online ones. Some leave a fond memory, and some a bad taste." -Aesop

User avatar
blackeagle603
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 8940
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:13 am
Location: SoCal
Contact:

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby blackeagle603 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:25 pm

Yeah, I think that sets a new standard for first posts. Saw some of your earlier reports on this work elsewhere. Most excellent.

Gets me thinking about the possibilities for the H&R Topper 12 ga I have at the back of my safe. It's going pretty much unused but not forgotten. It was my purchase (at age 13 after my first paper route colllection). It's worthy of being used for this sort of madness.
"The Guncounter: More fun than a barrel of tattooed knife-fighting chain-smoking monkey butlers with drinking problems and excessive gambling debts!"

"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic;" Justice Story

User avatar
Aglifter
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:15 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Aglifter » Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:52 pm

There are sick, sick people in the Big Bore section of the Accurate Reloading forum - the big bore shoots are great
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our Fortunes, & our sacred Honor

A gentleman unarmed is undressed.

Collects of 1903/08 Colt Pocket Auto

User avatar
arctictom
Active Shooter
Posts: 3203
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:57 pm
Location: Fairbanks Alaska
Contact:

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby arctictom » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:10 pm

I love big bores and this is a very fun thing to do with your extra time is make really big guns, I just don't want another gun safe.
And welcome to our forum .
You live and learn.
Or you don't live long.

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:25 am

Videos Youtube --blowing up 6gal pail of water ---"Grandpa's Cannon"
"Grandpa's First Shot" -- 12ga FH -- 610gr HP at 2800-3000.

We get asked about legality and whether these big cartridges
are DDs. First of all; all shotgun calibers over 50cal are exempt from
being classified as DDs under Title 18 GCA Section 921....
And it doesn't matter what exciting or promo name we call them,
the barrels are still marked for gauge. They can be called 12ga 3 Inch
Super Magnum, 12ga Goose Magnum, 12ga From hell, 12ga 3.5 Express,
12ga Hammerhead, etc, they still are a 12ga case of some length.
And length doesn't matter as long as shorter cases, with straight
sides, and same 12ga(or whatever gauge)base size fit and fire in
longer chambers. IE; 2.5, 2.75, and 3" firing in 3.5", and all of these
firing in our 3.85" longer chamber. IE; you can't take 37mm cannon
shell and neck it to 12ga and have an automatically exempt 12ga
cartridge, as other shorter 12 gauges would not fit/fire in chamber,
and you'd have to get it exempt as sporting. How-
Under the same Section any other over 50cal non-shotgun
cartridge can be classified as Exempt For Sporting Use by
applying for the exemption, like I have done for my cases,and many
others(JDJ-AHR-Etc) have done, as well as cases already sporting
from the old days. Now as for hunting rules in shotgun areas,
game depts may say that you can't use long range spitzer bullets
but must use traditional blunt slugs, for safety. Hunting rules are
varied all over the place.

More history of firsts, in our 12ga FH and big bore work.

The first gun of mine to have this case was
my Savage 210 in first picture with a regular style
heavy stock. Later changed to thumbhole stock.
I changed barrel to heavy bull barrel and
chambered it for the 12ga FH 3.85" long case.

Second picture is the first NEF 12ga Ultra that we put
the first 12ga fH case in. I only had to lengthen chamber.
The same gun now has long barrel and thumbhole stock.

Third picture is first NEF 10ga heavy barrel that we put
the 10ga FH in. Gun came with long 30" heavy barrel.

Fourth picture is the first 8ga test gun we built using the
super strong 8ga kiln cases with the belt step swaged
down. It is an Enfield that we reamed out to take the
case, like the 12ga Mauser 12ga conversions were done.
And we added extra rear bolt lugs for strength.

Fifth picture is the 1st gun my 585HE was put in.
It is an Enfield and gets 750gr bullet 2700 fps.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


And in the vein of old time gun actions, of which are various falling
blocks, we like them also for the hairy big bores, like the 8bore and
4bore ones we made over the years, that are pictured above.
Following are 3 pictures of various parts and processes of making the
action, using easy to get small parts, lever, trigger, hammer, etc,
and the action block, breach block from steel blocks in 1st pic.

Last 2 pictures are the FBW brand falling blocks, one which is the
Model L that we adapted to the one piece stock and the other is the
smaller Model S with regular two piece stock. Both are set up with
my 585HE. I can run full pressure in the 585.

The Model L, I can switch to a 20ga barrel, 600NE barrel,
and my 700HE using moderate loads. Last pic is Model L with
thumb hole stock, and my 585HE case in the action..Ed

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
HTRN
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 10663
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:05 am
Location: Under your bed with a knife
Contact:

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby HTRN » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:09 pm

Aglifter wrote:There are sick, sick people in the Big Bore section of the Accurate Reloading forum


That may be the understatement of the week. :lol:
Ed and his 12 gauge from hell.
R Neil Shirley and the 550 Magnum.
Dr. Rob Garnett and the 600 Overkill.

Hell the forum has it's own magnum cartridges - ".416/.458/.470/.500 Accurate Reloading".

You can do the same thing Ed's doing on a somewhat more sedate level, by using either a Savage 210, or an H&R slug gun, and some robust 12 gauge brass hulls - Rocky Mtn Cartridge springs to mind. Qual Cart might have "Paradox" style hulls too. Now get a mold(NEI has a .732 dia/835 grn cherry) or use something like Dixie terminator slugs - their patterned after a paradox style slug.
EGO partum , proinde EGO sum

Describing what HTRN does as "antics" is like describing the wreck of the Titanic as "a minor boating incident" ~ First Shirt

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

User avatar
Aglifter
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:15 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Aglifter » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:43 am

Did anyone try converting a Saiga to a 12FH? (Insert maniacal laughter)... Er, using someone else's shoulder...
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our Fortunes, & our sacred Honor

A gentleman unarmed is undressed.

Collects of 1903/08 Colt Pocket Auto

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:54 am

We are thinking of Saiga conversion to heavy barrel, when we get one.

Now some info on cases and slugs
The 50 BMG brass can be made into some real
great cartridges, our 12ga FH, shown first, showing
cases with rim turned off and threaded; and the 12ga rim
pieces to be screwed on, with finished cases shown.
And 2nd making my 700HE showing original BMG case,
case with belt only, and then expanded out to 700cal.
This makes a super strong big bore case, as I have
fired some 25 times and case is still good.And
it in my big Vulcan bolt gun gets a 1000gr to 3200.

3rd picture shows our 4bore/ga case with slugs, and
the 20mm case we make them from. They match the 4bore
turned cases that are used in the Ken Owen doubles.
4th the Rocky Mtn Cartridge, 12ga turned 3.5" cases
with variety of slugs and sabots.In picture first loaded
one is BPI sabot, then 730gr Dixie, then 600gr Dixie,
then RG Henson's solid nose and his hollowpoint.
RMC can make cases any length and any gauge.
5th shows a 12ga FH and 10ga FH we made using steel
basecups taken from 12 and 10 ga cases. We turned down
bases a few thousands of the original brass cases
and epoxied the bases. Used BMG case s for 12ga and
50cal Russian for 10ga.This research came from a
another forum poster, like over half of what we do.Ed

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

More pictures of 12ga slugs and saboted slugs.
1st The US-S sabot/slug, with the green locked on base,
along with others.The US-S slug is nearly as accurate
in smoothbores, for which it is made, as sabots are
in rifled. those pictured are heavier than most other
brands of saboted slugs.

2nd a Jacketed 730gr by RG Henson and a hard,heat treated
600gr by Dixie Slugs in FL, both full bore slugs,
3rd a BPI sabot with hardcast 440gr, .504"
diameter slug. BPIs were intended to use .500" bullets
used in 500S&W, the little larger ones we use seem
little more accurate.Makes tighter fit in rifled barrels.
4th other sabots we tested ,
and there are many other slugs/sabots we'll show..Ed


Image

Image

Image

Image

MarkD
Active Shooter
Posts: 3778
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:59 pm
Contact:

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby MarkD » Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:27 pm

I know this is entirely the wrong question to ask, but what purpose do these thumpers perform that's not already handled by existing cartridges? Has someone made Jurassic Park real without my knowledge?

I get it, people want a .600 nitro because no one makes a .700 nitro, until someone does, then they want that until someone makes an .800. "Just because" is a perfectly valid answer, but there comes a point where any animal that walks the earth can be hunted at any range at which you can reliably hit the vital zone, so some of these cartridges just seem to be punishing the shooter more without making the animal any deader. So, do these cartridges do anything except thump the shooter any better than, say, a .458 Lott, .470/.500/.600 Nitro, .460 Weatherby, etc?

Awaiting HTRN's statement-of-purpose in 3-2-1.....

User avatar
HTRN
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 10663
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:05 am
Location: Under your bed with a knife
Contact:

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby HTRN » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:31 pm

MarkD wrote:Awaiting HTRN's statement-of-purpose in 3-2-1.....


Because BIGGER IS BETTER. :mrgreen:
EGO partum , proinde EGO sum

Describing what HTRN does as "antics" is like describing the wreck of the Titanic as "a minor boating incident" ~ First Shirt

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

User avatar
Darrell
Good Christ I Need A Life
Posts: 6586
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:12 am
Location: Colorado

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Darrell » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:36 pm

The .700 WTF was recently shown at some other gun blogs (and yes, WTF stands for what you think it does):

The .700 WTF : For Hunting Dinosaurs

A member of the Cast Boolits forums posted photos and video of a rifle and .700 caliber cartridge he designed. The only component he did not make himself was the barrel.

The cartridge, named the .700 WTF ("What The F...") and is made by fire forming a .50 BMG brass case, trimming it to 3" in length and then sizing it. The round is loaded with a 1132 grain paper patched .700 lead cast bullet.

The rifle, with just a 16.25" barrel, can push the 1132 grain of lead up to 2300 fps. Thats 13,000 ft/lbs of energy, right up there with the .50 BMG and far exceeding the .700 Nitro Express. The cast lead bullet has enough energy to pass clean through a 1/4" steel plate.


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011 ... dinosaurs/

Ah, here's the original:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=124685

And here's a vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... FYXTH7Gdhk
Eppur si muove--Galileo

User avatar
HTRN
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 10663
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:05 am
Location: Under your bed with a knife
Contact:

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby HTRN » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:03 am

Something I dreamed up a while ago:
The McBros repeating BMG action has a 1.25" bolt diameter and a 5.6" mag length. Those are the max dimensions for any cartridge used in that action..

A 14.5x114mm Sov machine gun cartridge case is roughly 1.062 at the base, with a case length of 4.5". The rim is larger and thicker than the 50 bmg so it will need to be recut. 20x102mm is another possiblity.

Now here's were it gets interesting - Kreiger sells .950 groove barrels . take the case, swage a belt onto it(CH4D will make you belt swaging dies), put a slight bottle neck onto it, and you're in business. If you decide to make your own bullets, a large(1.5" probably) copper tube cap, drawn down into a jacket is probably easiest, although you can probably also make it from 1" tube. Once you have that, swage some cores, flux the jacket, insert core, stick in a toaster oven, and then noseform, and you got yourself half pound bonded soft points. You can probably get at least 2000 ft/second out of them, so it roughly translates to a minimum of 30K foot pounds.

Anybody wanna loan me 40 or 50 grand for the parts tools and equipment needed to do all that? :mrgreen:
EGO partum , proinde EGO sum

Describing what HTRN does as "antics" is like describing the wreck of the Titanic as "a minor boating incident" ~ First Shirt

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

User avatar
Darrell
Good Christ I Need A Life
Posts: 6586
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:12 am
Location: Colorado

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Darrell » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:39 am

So, would YOU shoot it, or talk someone else into trying it? :lol:
I am reminded of a post I made some years ago, about some famous great white hunter back in the day. He stated that he regretted shooting some of the guns he'd used, IIRC he felt that his health was permanently affected.
Eppur si muove--Galileo

User avatar
Combat Controller
Superuser
Posts: 4857
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:03 am
Location: Central Texas, mostly.

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Combat Controller » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:59 am

HTRN you should hit Chris up with his fancy new shop!

Jeebus those are some monsters. Welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing. I would say that we need a new type of competition, one based on sheer penetration, or wound channel size. Like boomer shoot but with 12 foot long ballistics Gelatin tubs.
Winner of the prestigious Автомат Калашникова образца 1947 года award for excellence in rural travel.

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:59 am

I have a 14,5 russian brass case expanded to 12ga just to look at.
But I'm not a big fan of necked cases. And I find it's
easier to make a 4bore or 2 bore.

Quite a few have wanted doubles in our 12GA long case.
Rob is doing one on a big 10ga Zabala double,with Greener
crossbolt lock. He is replacing 10ga barrels with heavy
12ga rifled barrels, mono-blocked into the 10ga breaches
by threading them into the breach sections.
First,2nd,3rd pictures. He is now building and getting
barrel ribs done and the gun regulated.

4th picture is my 700HE in a Vulcan bolt action.
5th is the 6gal water pail from the Youtube video, atomizing.
The pail was heavy plastic, full and sealed tight.
That was 12ga 600gr hollow point slug about 3000 fps.


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

CASES-1st is comparison of 12ga FH brass cases, with ours on the
left we made using bmg brass, and 3 on the right that
are of a few we found already done in 12ga size, that is
as long as ours.RMC makes them long as ours and any length needed.
2nd is our long case next to short one.You can see how much
thicker and stronger our case is.

3rd is a slug made for rifled, for use in 12ga wadcup, and it
being 16ga size works in our 16ga FH case also, as shown.
4th shows 20ga RMC cases and dies we have found for them.


5th shows 1500gr 4bore slugs a guy cast for me and cases.
These are hollowbase, as our 4 and 8 gauges on the falling
blocks, are smoothbore. Top loads with these 25-2700.Ed


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
Aglifter
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:15 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Aglifter » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:01 am

Well, the big bore shoot involves defending Juliff from a scourge of milk jugs...
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our Fortunes, & our sacred Honor

A gentleman unarmed is undressed.

Collects of 1903/08 Colt Pocket Auto

MarkD
Active Shooter
Posts: 3778
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:59 pm
Contact:

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby MarkD » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:05 pm

HTRN wrote:Something I dreamed up a while ago:
The McBros repeating BMG action has a 1.25" bolt diameter and a 5.6" mag length. Those are the max dimensions for any cartridge used in that action..

A 14.5x114mm Sov machine gun cartridge case is roughly 1.062 at the base, with a case length of 4.5". The rim is larger and thicker than the 50 bmg so it will need to be recut. 20x102mm is another possiblity.

Now here's were it gets interesting - Kreiger sells .950 groove barrels . take the case, swage a belt onto it(CH4D will make you belt swaging dies), put a slight bottle neck onto it, and you're in business. If you decide to make your own bullets, a large(1.5" probably) copper tube cap, drawn down into a jacket is probably easiest, although you can probably also make it from 1" tube. Once you have that, swage some cores, flux the jacket, insert core, stick in a toaster oven, and then noseform, and you got yourself half pound bonded soft points. You can probably get at least 2000 ft/second out of them, so it roughly translates to a minimum of 30K foot pounds.

Anybody wanna loan me 40 or 50 grand for the parts tools and equipment needed to do all that? :mrgreen:


If you ever do make it, a week later there will be video of a guy handing one to his girlfriend the first time he takes her shooting.

Seriously though, I'd imagine you'd need one heckuva muzzle brake on THAT puppy to avoid doing serious damage to your skeleton. And there better not be anyone standing next to the muzzle brake who wants to continue hearing.

User avatar
HTRN
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 10663
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:05 am
Location: Under your bed with a knife
Contact:

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby HTRN » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:51 pm

CombatController wrote:HTRN you should hit Chris up with his fancy new shop!


Oh, I can build it myself, I just need money for a bigger lathe, money for parts, money for a Corbin Hydro Swage, just well... money. ;)

And in case you guys haven't figured it out yet, there's no way in hell I'm building such a monstrosity. This goes beyond "Overkill" and into "Ludicrous" territory. Unless they manage to clone brachiepods, then I'm all set. :mrgreen:
EGO partum , proinde EGO sum

Describing what HTRN does as "antics" is like describing the wreck of the Titanic as "a minor boating incident" ~ First Shirt

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

User avatar
SoupOrMan
Good Christ I Need A Life
Posts: 5409
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:58 am
Location: The Village Hidden in Bureaucracy

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby SoupOrMan » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:46 pm

Heck, I'd just like some heavier slugs that will fit in a 2 1/2" .410 shell that won't wreck my old Iver-Johnson Champion while wrecking deer, coyotes and other animals that traipse too close to the house. 109 grains won't cut it!
Remember, folks, you can't spell "douche" without "Che."

“PET PARENTS?” You’re not a “pet parent.” You’re a pet owner. Unless you’ve committed an unnatural act that succeeded in spite of biology. - Glenn Reynolds

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:19 pm

If your IJ has a heavy barrel ream out most of any
choke is has to .005 smaller than bore size,
and use 44cal bullets,You can use
loaded 44-40 pistol cases and slugs also.Ed

User avatar
arctictom
Active Shooter
Posts: 3203
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:57 pm
Location: Fairbanks Alaska
Contact:

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby arctictom » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:41 pm

2700 Fps with a 1500 gr slug , :shock: ouch.
You live and learn.
Or you don't live long.

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:04 pm

That is why it has double thick pad and thumbhole stock.
That is a max bragging load. Normal hunting speed 21-2200.

Some more gun info about what others around the world
are doing with big bores. First is a 4bore Tula pump
gun, made in Russia. A few guys in the US have them.
They are smoothbore and .938" bore. They used a short
3" long plastic case, and we helped some of the
owners get a run of brass cases by Rocky Mtn Cartridge.
Big Al, a poster on the AR Big Bore Forums owns one.
Our 4bore case is a full 1" bore 4.05" long.
Many early 4bores for shot were set up with .935-938"
smooth bores.

Second is a bolt gun a guy in Europe did in 1" bore
using 20mm brass expanded, ending up for
headspacing, a small shoulder. It is full length like
ours, instead of shortened like other pipsqueak ones.
3rd is our big and small falling blocks, big one
the 4bore we made and other a FBW Model L in 585HE.
Both stocks need finishing in these pictures
and metal surfaces has to be finished...I'm not a
fancy, finish smith and to busy experimenting,
to get everything real fancy.

4th is a 20ga FH 3.5" chamber break action. It is a
CBC and we monoblocked in a heavy long 20ga barrel.
5th is a Mauser 12ga GEHA conversion, that had real
light barrel and cracked stock. We put the extra
Savage 12ga 24", rifled slug barrel we had in it, and
used the strong Savage plastic stock. Still has original
3" chamber and we test our slow powder 3" plastic loads.
Great load with full bore slug, is 600gr Dixie, using
90gr IMR4759, going 1800. This load was lab tested
and verified for speed and only runs plastic case, magnum
shotgun pressures.



Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


More info on cases, first is our cases where we put in a
bushing to use shotgun primers. Also some of the guys
shorten the cases for use in 3" and shorter chambers.
Magtech makes 2.5" 12ga drawn brass cases that guys
are reloading for use in short actions, like 1887 leverguns.
2nd is 8ga plastic cases we use, the left 2 are
REM and clear is WIN. These can be gotten at BPI
and Precision Reloading. We use roll crimp on
these for slugs and sabots.
1100gr at 2000 is a good load. 9 triple ought buckshot
is a good load. Totals 630gr for the 9, goes 2500
if you want hairy load.

3rd are 8 and 10 ga hard cast slugs with hollowbases, we use.
4th is some of our wildcat cartridge stuff, my 585HE cases,
die sets, and reamers. Dies are by CH4D, reamers by Manson.
5th is our 585HE in two break actions, a CBC and NEF.
Both set up by mono-blocking in 585 heavy barrels...Ed


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:58 am

Some more gun info. Here is picture of a nice, large diameter
action a fellow built, for big bore use.Nice beautiful machine
work, He put a 700 short case in it. He called it 700WTF.
It would do 12ga, 16ga, 20 ga, etc.

Second is the 8 bore we just made on falling block. It is
chambered for now for the 8ga 3.3" heavy duty plastic
case that we use. That we get by swaging the belt down on
the new 8ga kiln cases, that BPI and Precision Reloading sell.
The chamber fires old original 8ga cases also, but a regular
kiln load not swaged, won't chamber, a safety factor for guns not
as strong as the falling block. Guys in the UK gave me the idea
of swaging down the belt on kiln cases, as they did it
to get cases for their old 8ga doubles.

Third is the Savage 210 we put a 700 cal barrel in and made it
a 700NE. The 700 NE has same rim diameter as 12ga, but a
smaller base, ,020" smaller, Handles the loads fine, as its
factory loads are the same as our top loads in the Savage
with RMC 3.5 brass cases. Before that I had my 700H 3.25"
belted case in it. Worked great.

4th- we made a 28ga FH, a brass case 3.25" long that
RMC made for us. The chamber still fits and fires shorter
28ga plastic cases.Here is one in picture with a 505 Gibbs to show
the size and potential. I put first one in a Mossy 695 bolt gun
with a heavy rifled barrel. The 28ga rifled is same groove
diameter as the 550 magnum, so same diameter slugs work.

5th are couple of our 12ga FH cases guys shortened for
short actions, less recoil. Left are 2 inches,right 2.25"
and some have shortened them to 2.5" for use in
guns that will feed loaded 3" plastic. The 3" loaded plastic
and 2.5" brass with slug are about 2.7" overall..
If you folks have questions we'll help if we can.Ed






Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
Netpackrat
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 12186
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:04 am
Location: Anchorage, AK

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Netpackrat » Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:25 pm

Please pardon my rudeness but I've gotta ask... You've posted the same material to almost every gun forum that I follow, and presumably others, and then you check in to each of them every day or two to tend your threads, and post more pictures, so what's the deal? Is this a membership drive for the Accurate Reloading forums, are you just trying to get more people interested in building Shotguns From Hell, or what?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything. It's just that simultaneously (or nearly) cross-posting a message to a bunch of different forums, that is actually interesting, on topic material, and isn't spam, is kind of unusual and I just wondered if you would share your reasoning with us?
Cognosce teipsum et disce pati

"People come and go in our lives, especially the online ones. Some leave a fond memory, and some a bad taste." -Aesop

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:49 am

Just trying to get the word out to see if we can make
more big bore nuts, not selling or a business
deal. And to see if others with their knowledge
have ideas and help. It is a passion we are trying
to pass on.

What we are doing in getting more power from shotgun calibers
isn't super new or completely novel, most just
modernizing and improving older ideas..

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had over 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, thinner barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 4th picture.
Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the first 4 pics.


Image

Image

Image

Image


Continuing-Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to 150+ yds. Even in the old days. Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20 bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not quite as strong as 12ga FH
but as strong as some factory hotrod loads now ....We can do more
now due to better guns, powder selection, and accumulated research.
Picture #1 from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture is from the Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.

2rd is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks 4th picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for our 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

We are now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.Ed


Image

Image

Image

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:10 pm

Some more stuff from the old days---
First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, that didn't have real heavy barrels.
These guns had short section of rifling at the end
of the barrel or shallow rifling. THis allowed more speed
than old foster slugs which flattened the trajectory,
and along with rifling spin, allowed for longer range shooting.


Second picture from Greener book here, is of older 4 and
8 gauges.And you can see videos some of these great old
guns on Youtube.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.
This case matches the turned 4bore case that Ken Owen had made
for the 4bore doubles he built.



Image

Image

Image


And more from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
more modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.

3rd is what a 4bore slug, if stop framed so to speak, would
look just leaving the muzzle of the 4bore falling block
we built. Some 4bores were used in the old days but they were
poorly stocked and balanced for taming recoil. Ours with thick
pads, thumbhole stock, proper balance with 1500gr
slug at 2000 all our guys here can handle just fine..Ed

Image

Image

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:29 pm

Some more slug experimenting and developement.
Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
we had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug.
The original Lee mold makes slugs smaller diameter,
so that they fit in a 12ga wadcup.
Slugs are hard cast alloy to take high speeds..
In picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass 12ga cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN,
where they needed short combination to feed from tube.
These slugs have real good shoulder step to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.

These first ones are 500 gr.The guys are reworking
another die to get the weight up to about 600gr,
that some of our the brass case guys want to use.
So many guys like the 600 gr size, but these with
the partly hollow base allows them to be longer,
for a little more stability,if used in smooth barrels.
Lee molds are not a real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and change them.

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug, in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.
Brenekke has had full bore slugs with lock-on seal and
cushion, but this new appliction putting them in a sabot.
Picture #2


Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.And no steel touches
the bore only the plastic.Should have good penetration
witout breaking apart.These are front heavy will get
fair accuracy in smooth bores.




Image

Image

Image


A new slug from the EU,a new 300gr US-S slug with locked
on base, discarding petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate
in smooth bores, Using the same idea as their all brass slugs
we showed above with locked on base, and discarding front petals.
Only these are mostly aluminum to get a lighter slug combo.In the
first picture.In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
we can get 2800. 2nd picture some results of penetration tests
in a sand bank they did. The brass centers penetrate like the
all brass ones they make.They are reporting 2" groups from regular
barreled smoothbore pumpguns at 50 yds with scope.Ed

Image

Image

User avatar
Aglifter
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:15 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Aglifter » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:56 pm

Those look pretty darn cool - any idea for a source/how much they run? They might be quite a thing for 3-gun.
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our Fortunes, & our sacred Honor

A gentleman unarmed is undressed.

Collects of 1903/08 Colt Pocket Auto

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:57 am

Right now the Greek Cc is working to find a distributor
to import them into North America. And they are selling them
like crazy in the EU along with the solid brass ones.

We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic case got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2 cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs...

Image

A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the
front. Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs from Greece are on the
plastic bases, that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders...

Image

Image


Here is picture of a great sizer for expanded plastic
cases, a MEC Super Sizer. It operates with collets. Sizes
cases better than factory. Has the power to shrink
expanded basecups. 2nd picture is the roll crimper tool
in drill press, it does plastic cases as good a roll crimp
as the factory does.You can see couple we crimped
behind press base in picture...Ed

Image

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:16 am

Here is picture of 4 long cases, top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
3.5" turned brass 20ga. Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass. Bottom
a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.

Image


Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.

Image


Next pictures shows bullet jackets made from a copper tubing caps.
Caps are the ones they solder on to copper pipes, and they made
a die and punch to form them to a good nose shape and
size. Then they fill them from rear with lead.
Example; 1/2" cap does 700cal and 12ga with
right dies and punches.

Image

Image


Last the 2nd gun we put the 585HE long belted case in,
a Ruger 77 bolt action. it has a heavy 585 cal barrel,
and it is a real strong action....Ed

Image

User avatar
SoupOrMan
Good Christ I Need A Life
Posts: 5409
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:58 am
Location: The Village Hidden in Bureaucracy

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby SoupOrMan » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:46 pm

Wow. I never thought about using plumbing endcaps for jackets. That's pretty wild.
Remember, folks, you can't spell "douche" without "Che."

“PET PARENTS?” You’re not a “pet parent.” You’re a pet owner. Unless you’ve committed an unnatural act that succeeded in spite of biology. - Glenn Reynolds

Greg
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 8043
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:15 pm
Location: MO

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Greg » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:32 pm

HTRN wrote:
MarkD wrote:Awaiting HTRN's statement-of-purpose in 3-2-1.....


Because BIGGER IS BETTER. :mrgreen:


Like a hyper 2 year-old who's gotten so excited playing he's gone manic.

MOAR!!!!!!

This is pretty entertaining and some if it is pretty clever... but constantly chasing the bigger and better thrill- can be fun for a while but you're never really going to be happy.

Spoiler! :
Actually it makes me think of a certain Buddy Hackett routine that involved thin walls, noisy neighbors and a lamp. And trying to get some sleep. Damn I miss Buddy Hackett.
Maybe we're just jaded, but your villainy is not particularly impressive. -Ennesby

If you know what you're doing, you're not learning anything. -Unknown
Sanity is the process by which you continually adjust your beliefs so they are predictively sound. -esr

User avatar
AZMARK
Loose Cannon
Posts: 952
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:05 am
Location: Meridian, Ms.

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby AZMARK » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:16 pm

SoupOrMan wrote:Wow. I never thought about using plumbing endcaps for jackets. That's pretty wild.


You ain't seen nothin' yet. 8-)
My favorite story of his ended with "...and so he went out the back door in his bathrobe, flipped the AK to 'Afrikaner', and started hosing the baboons off his tennis court." - Tam

User avatar
HTRN
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 10663
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:05 am
Location: Under your bed with a knife
Contact:

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby HTRN » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:56 pm

AZMARK wrote:
SoupOrMan wrote:Wow. I never thought about using plumbing endcaps for jackets. That's pretty wild.


You ain't seen nothin' yet. 8-)


The three biggest suppliers of jackets are Corbin, Sierra, and Berger. Berger offers a huge variety of rifle jackets, but nothing over .308. Sierra only offers 3 different Jackets, and they're for rifles. Corbin offers both rifle and pistol jackets.. HOWEVER, if you want long heavy jackets, you have to find one of the boutique jacket makers and hope he A) makes them and B) doesn't charge an arm and a leg.

Corbin, and I believe RSE both make jacket making dies, for making jackets from common copper tubing.
EGO partum , proinde EGO sum

Describing what HTRN does as "antics" is like describing the wreck of the Titanic as "a minor boating incident" ~ First Shirt

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:53 am

Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
pictured have the locked on base that their
other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
for doing slugs like these.Ed

Image

Image


We also had RMC make us a long brass 28ga case.
It is 3.25" long as shown in picture. They could be
3" or whatever you would want. The 550 Mag rifled barrels
are perfect bore for them, and we did one
in a Mossy 695 bolt gun, 2nd picture...Added heavy barrel.
It is shown next to a 505 Gibbs brass
case 1st picture to show that it isn't a puny case.
And chamber still fires plastic 28ga like the
new Brenekke slugs just out.Ed

Image

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:36 am

First picture is an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from a good
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.
This shows the possibilities of working with smoothbores,
rather than not trying to make them work.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base slug, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.Ed

Image


Image


Image


In earlier thread I mentioned the long brass 28ga case
we setup. Well here is picture of a revolving 28ga
we will try to get later on and put in heavy barrel
and longer chamber and use brass 28ga cases.Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:22 am

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.

Image

Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.

Image

Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:41 am

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.

Image

Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.

Image

Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
or in sabots if we can find some.ED

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:03 am

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types.

First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
tight, into the base.

Image

Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
3.5" RMC cases.

Image

Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
I wish the BPI was full size like the others
and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........

Image

Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed


Image

User avatar
Windy Wilson
Active Shooter
Posts: 4623
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:32 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Windy Wilson » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:35 pm

Interesting thread, here. I'm not sure I want to test-fire any of these guns,but they are remarkable and beautiful examples of ingenuity and craftsmanship.
Since People's Republic of Kalifornia has seen fit to ban the .50 bmg and the guns that shoot it (unless you were able to arrange one before the ban), I wonder if the .700 WTF is legal here. It isn't a 50 bmg, so should pass, but it probably would be a problem if the brass said .50 bmg.
The use of the word "but" usually indicates that everything preceding it in a sentence is a lie.
E.g.:
"I believe in Freedom of Speech, but". . .
"I support the Second Amendment, but". . .
--Randy

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:29 am

We mark the guns and brass for whatever we are doing.
The 12ga Rims Rob puts on cases says 12ga. The cases
RMC makes says the gauge. My 700s say 700HE. there is no
BMG lettering on them.

Some more slug setups and ideas.

First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
Shown with BPI powder cup seals.

Image



2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
With corresponding length cases they were designed for.

Image



3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.

Image



4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.

Image
Last edited by hubel585 on Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:25 pm

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
They look like Berdan primed. Run from
36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.

Image

Second is a paper case clad with
thin brass nearly to the top.

Image

Third is picture of paper case crimped into
the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
pictured above with a Dixie slug.

Image

Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
that have been available, for reloading guys. That
the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
had to work with.

I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
Can be loaded faster.

No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
than witches ---, and no time.
I am trying to find who makes these.There are
about 2000 injection mold companies in US.Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:46 pm

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
Slug is .629" diameter.

Image

Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.

Image

Here is older picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
Man what nice old guns.

Image

Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:16 pm

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.

Image

Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.

Image

Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.

Image

Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:27 am

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.

Image

Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.

Image

Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.

Image

Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed


Image

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:14 pm

The sabots we are working with, take at least 15 different
58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
sabot at .733" with all of them in. There are 5 Dixie
Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
when folks cast their own.

I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.

Image

From the research on sabot patents and testing by various
of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy
at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how
to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in
regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.
Behind are Lyman and Lee 58cal molds. Got more coming of
different 58cal weights, clear down to 315gr. My casting
friend will get them and as soon a we get somebody making
the sabot, he can aid the cause by making slugs.
Some of the Lyman and Lee slugs are more streamlined than
modst big bore rifle bullets as you can see in picture.

Image

Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
setup on NEFs, and CBCs.

Image

Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
extra weight.

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:21 am

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.

Image

Image

Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.

Image

4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

Image

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:35 am

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.

Image


Image


Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.

Image

Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch rounds called the
"Lethal" and the "destructor".

Image


5th picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.I think it is rifled
barrels.....Nice beautiful old gun.Ed

Image

User avatar
SoupOrMan
Good Christ I Need A Life
Posts: 5409
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:58 am
Location: The Village Hidden in Bureaucracy

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby SoupOrMan » Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:31 am

Once again, this is some fascinating work.
Remember, folks, you can't spell "douche" without "Che."

“PET PARENTS?” You’re not a “pet parent.” You’re a pet owner. Unless you’ve committed an unnatural act that succeeded in spite of biology. - Glenn Reynolds

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sun May 06, 2012 9:10 am

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
compared to short fullbore ones....


Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.

Image

Image


Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.

Image


Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed

Image

User avatar
Aglifter
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:15 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Aglifter » Sun May 06, 2012 1:27 pm

Have you tried messing w. an MKA 1919 shotgun? The recoil might be something else, but it would be an interesting pig gun...
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our Fortunes, & our sacred Honor

A gentleman unarmed is undressed.

Collects of 1903/08 Colt Pocket Auto

User avatar
Aglifter
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:15 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Aglifter » Sun May 06, 2012 1:27 pm

And that is a very nice 8ga...
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our Fortunes, & our sacred Honor

A gentleman unarmed is undressed.

Collects of 1903/08 Colt Pocket Auto

User avatar
308Mike
Moderator
Posts: 16439
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:47 pm
Location: San Diego area, People's Republic of Kommiefornia

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby 308Mike » Sun May 06, 2012 9:06 pm

Aglifter wrote:And that is a very nice 8ga...


It sure is!!
POLITICIANS & DIAPERS NEED TO BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON

A person properly schooled in right and wrong is safe with any weapon. A person with no idea of good and evil is unsafe with a knitting needle, or the cap from a ballpoint pen.

I remain pessimistic given the way BATF and the anti gun crowd have become tape worms in the guts of the Republic. - toad

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Mon May 21, 2012 12:53 pm

Yes 8ga is nice gun. I've never tried one of those.

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.

Image

Image

Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.

Image

In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..

Image

Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:16 am

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.

Image


Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.

Image


Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.

Image


On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:36 am

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
allow it to tip or go off center.

Image

Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.

Image

Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:52 am

With other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
done later this month and will be doing cases then.
Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.
I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,
to fill orders, and collectors. Get 50 for 150 bucks,get
100 for 300 bucks, 167 cases for 500 bucks.
I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
and get it to me and I send them on to him.
I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
money ready to go for over 700.
Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed

User avatar
Netpackrat
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 12186
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:04 am
Location: Anchorage, AK

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Netpackrat » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:58 am

Has it been 3 weeks already?
Cognosce teipsum et disce pati

"People come and go in our lives, especially the online ones. Some leave a fond memory, and some a bad taste." -Aesop

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:50 am

Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
balls 285gr each, going about 1900 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.
Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,
muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did a little longer port and
added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed

Image

Image

PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain
compared to other big bore cases. For if you buy 150 or so you've saved
enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
My contact--- gunowner at journey.com

For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countres
make arraingements with Bertram to send cases directly to you.
We can't afford export costs to send cases back out of the US
due to costly permits.and goofy gun laws.............


.

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:22 am

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.

Image

Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.

Image

Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.

Image



And an ultimate big bore from history.ED

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:03 am

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.

Image

Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.

Image

I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed


Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:24 am

I found pictures of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with screw
in chokes. Will have pics few days. Don't know
how heavy barrel is yet.

Also will have pictures and test of brass 585HE sent
here. They are 585HE case samples from the first big
run of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.Ed

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:47 am

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.

Image

Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first
shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,
Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
we just got done.

Image


I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real
tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.
He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
we get money built up for an order..Ed



Image

Image

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:53 am

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.

Image

Image

Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
And one 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220
20ga, with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets
measured about 2 inches. Four shots in two inches.Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:53 am

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

Image

Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..

Image

Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.

Image

Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:11 pm

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..

Image

Image

Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
and the Magtech 199 shown above.

Image

Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:53 am

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.

Image

I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and metal above it in the bottom, giving
room to the back, for cases that are 3.9" plus overall loaded length.

Image

Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World put these together.

Image

Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like RE-17 which is much slower than shotgun powders. .
It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the rate of burn
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressures down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002".
And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:48 am

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
right is factory SPW.

Image

Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.



Image

Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed


Image

As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:37 am

First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

Image

Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
roundball with section copper tube, wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on
bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

Image

Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

Image

Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:50 am

Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we
get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
as 3' plastic crimped little long.

Image

Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.

Image

Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above.
Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
in wads as opposed to fullbore.

Image

Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE
guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the
newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be
possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.

Image

Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load
.Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the
Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get
85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi
instead of 65,000...Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:49 am

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.

Image

The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch
of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr
Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is
perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded
only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
We have big bunch of the sabots here now.


Image

All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the
bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom
is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..

Image

The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the
sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many
shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Get with me for sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,
with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sat Mar 30, 2013 11:05 pm

Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.
Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt
solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.
2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft
1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie
Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale
on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.
Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.
If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two
hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr
and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.

Image

Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with
white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.
I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in
smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.
To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.
You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.


Image

After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the
sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps
will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .
More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.
Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher
velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.
For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier
for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.
Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences
and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"
I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using
480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks
and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"


Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.
Or $20 for 50 postage included..
.Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus
WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..
We want you to help test and find what is best....Ed

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:38 am

Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr
58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.

Image

Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to
get them and get loads working.

Image

And A little funnin humor for us big bore nuts..Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:36 am

Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......
First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip
Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as
the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel
headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal
slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,
But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum
cushion wads.

The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a
base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of
Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.
Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left
fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.

Image

For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a
bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.
Many of you need to get in on the fun.
Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is
perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.

Image

Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light
barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra
springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made
for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on
the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock
for Ruger 77 in 585HE.

Image

And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so
in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next
to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.
Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..
Whoppee.....Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Mon May 06, 2013 9:41 am

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,
next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder
as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..
Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and
the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the
top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.

Image

Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases
at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case
mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling
impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel
straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that
we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.

Image

Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that
will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.

Image


The sabots are not moving very fast and I need money out of them asap, an
emergency bill coming... And seeing as how we're low on slugs to send with
the sabots, in big numbers, and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots,
and set up so they can be selling the sabots, we will try selling them
fast in next few weeks . So we will be having a sale on just the sabots, in larger
amounts only. We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so the guys
can see what we have found that works.
Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags of sabots fit
in, that have an affordable postage cost to pay,we will sell these in 200,
300, and 400 size orders..So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included,
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping included.
Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68 plus shipping.
There was dozens of guys the last few years all over the internet that bought
undersize junk, that wanted good sabots, and complained that the ones they
bought elsewhere didn't work......We haven't heard from most of them, So guys
see if you got time, please help us out here..And setup for good shooting...Ed

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sun May 26, 2013 7:23 pm

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.
First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot
bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting
barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.

Image

Image

And more important item that can cause lack of accuracy is if
base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real
tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.
On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand
which tapers a bit. Easy to see.

Image

Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball
flattened, put in the bottom and 400gr Minie above, two different
styles of Minies.

Image

Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize
12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use
for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about
where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.
They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:07 pm

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.

Image

Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support to the
bottom of the slug.If in part of the loads the support gets cocked, then
the slug won't be straight on and can account for open groups.

Image

Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,
but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.

Image

Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super size.

Image

Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.

Image

Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.
TheFiringLine, third. AccReloading fourth...Ed

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 11:45 pm

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
you can get molds for from Lyman,
Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter,
the best size for the 12ga sabots.

Image


A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed

Image

Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure
Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left
straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all
the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

User avatar
Aglifter
Probably Unemployed
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:15 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby Aglifter » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:22 pm

hubel585 wrote:Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
650gr over 3000 fps.


Maybe w. someone else's shoulder... :cry:
And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm Reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our Fortunes, & our sacred Honor

A gentleman unarmed is undressed.

Collects of 1903/08 Colt Pocket Auto

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:39 pm

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, 12ga Abolt, with wide lands in
the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel
and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759 & different slug.
It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.
Petals open perfect here. The Abolt barrel about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and
the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using
IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him
go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of
EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,
and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in
sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and
wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of
sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface
of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The
4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed
with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of
way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the
good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:39 pm

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with
black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is
an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks
impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt
he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like
the faster powder did for him.

Image
..
Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over
the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.
The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp
180 degree crimp down on top of it.

Image

We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but
they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case
1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.
Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.
The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs
We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,
single shots and checking couple lever actions.
Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

Image

Image

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:24 am

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots
.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of
brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner
Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies
and sometimes you have to use different wads..

Image

In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with
12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between
seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down
evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,

Image

You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case
I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps
I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.
The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it
in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into
couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,
straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big
run of cases made in a factory.


Image

Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi
in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.
Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.
The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length
with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as
they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 3:18 am

Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.
Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our
12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use
577 NE bullets also.

For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5"
Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use
577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper
than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style
forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.
Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,
and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.
You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,
1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon.

Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice
walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed.
It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine.

Image

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:17 pm

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE
3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to
540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep
saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other
caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
cheaper if you cast your own.

Image


Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
In back some of the cases and die sets.

Image

Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle. Guys are doing more Enfields
and other actions through the winter. Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:33 am

Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases
but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than
plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.
And cases expand a lot with heavier loaded slug
loads, are harder to resize, wear out quicker.
But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits
those cases and still chambers in regular 12ga.
chamber, it isnt a sloppy fit.

So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length
backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use
the Magtech brass and .850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.
Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case
and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.And you do not
fire them through 12ga regular size barrel.

Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length
backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads
under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.
The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,
and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum
pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short
case can hold.

It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.
These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than
others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns
to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual
12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to
minimum specs so cases don't over expand.
In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,
and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED


Image



Here is the ytube URL again for our guy
shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a
pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:52 am

Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop
the skirts from deforming, I found that dense dow foam works
good, I was using glue gun but dow foam is easier, Just cut
plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make a tight
fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....
Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug.

Image

How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on
top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga
and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI
24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great
in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and
wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.
The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with
the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,
drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.
And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single
shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,
even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .

Image

Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"
model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it
feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we
made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for
slightly longer stroke.Ed

Image

User avatar
SoupOrMan
Good Christ I Need A Life
Posts: 5409
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:58 am
Location: The Village Hidden in Bureaucracy

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby SoupOrMan » Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:16 am

You're talking about the bullets deforming when they're being loaded, correct? I would think they'd need to deform to create a better gas seal when fired.
Remember, folks, you can't spell "douche" without "Che."

“PET PARENTS?” You’re not a “pet parent.” You’re a pet owner. Unless you’ve committed an unnatural act that succeeded in spite of biology. - Glenn Reynolds

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:07 am

Both, with higher muzzle pressures they may deform unevenly when they pop out of
the barrel and/or the wad/seals get jammed into them and may not release or be
straight, so we figure to have something permanent in them that is straight, and
they still give enough to expand base to seal.

Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.
Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded
to match 577NE power.

Image

Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels
as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys
have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.

Image

Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three
reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:56 am

Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE
and getting 585HE cases made, as many as possible...

We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.

Image

Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
was pulled out, wouldn't stay in tight after pulled. Sabot was a loose fit
in 20ga, though made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. A press in fit gives
good resistance for good ignition.

Image

Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal Muzzle loaders..
With 250 gr bullet in 585HE hot load will go about mach 4.

Image

Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being
too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:04 am

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

Image


I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:29 am

Here is picture of 585HE 100 cases loaded, CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
or wide hollowpoint. .

Image

Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,
and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve
sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and
315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.

Image

I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases.


Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:55 am

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super
sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple
middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,
which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the
sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a
special made hollowed out long roll crimper.

Image

Getting some more interest in our 585HE.
An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr
spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place
where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.

Image

I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the
actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .
Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice
like me can do.....

Image

A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..
The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,
for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,
and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:15 pm

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about
mach 4 with a top load..

Image

Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a
bunch of them and so does McGowen.

Image


Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would
work in our 12ga sabot..

Image

But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.

Image

Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a
way to keep them together group wise.Ed


Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:04 pm

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,

Image

Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga dangerous
game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.

.Image

There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos


Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.


Image


Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.

Image

And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire
forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:10 am

The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.

One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.

They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.

We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.

But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..

For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.

Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed

Image

toad
On a list somewhere
Posts: 2431
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby toad » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:20 pm

Off topic a bit.
I'm thinking about the possibilities of using extra strong cases, near high explosive powders, and smooth bores to propel .25 to .35 rounds to really high velocities. Has anybody done this?

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:55 am

If you used near high explosive powders cases would have to be steel and
probably long straight ones, inside a barrel with 3 inch thick sides. and
a cannon breech. High explosive's speed of gas travel, is 4-6 times that of
smokeless powder and has tremendous heat, and brass cases would melt
and not be able to be removed from chamber.

Sorry to be away so long, health, getting old, and interruptions.
Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.

Image

Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.

Image

And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we use couple of the rifle powders, slower than shotgun powders, .
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and slower RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, in all temps, that has a speed between the IMR 4759 and the RE17.
RE17 uses different mfg process to put the deterrents in the powder kernel to
control speeds, which allows much easier ignition, because the deterrent is
not all on the outside of the kernel. RE17 ignites easier compared to 98%
majority of rifle powders with all the deterrent on the outside.

But there are some out there made by Nitrochemie in Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
for those folks in UK and Europe, They are called- RS 40, about same speed
as RE12, RS 50 & 52, about same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
that Nitrochemie made..

Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
Be nice to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or the V V TR140 shipped, if ever
possible, into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work.
But the guys in UK/EU now can load some real hairy, slow powder, slug loads,
we experimented with, even though not having IMR 4759....Ed

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 11:54 pm

We got guys wildcatting our 585HE case,


Image

Here is picture of that 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.

Image

Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.

Image

We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter receivers...Ed

Image

hubel585
Case Shiner
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:27 am

Re: 12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga FH; 585HE/700HE; Other Big bores--

Postby hubel585 » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:34 am

Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,

Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around

Image

Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny type.

Image

Image

The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed

Image


Return to “Guns and Shooting”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests