The Gun Counter

Hey all!
I am thinking of changing out my 5.56 carbine optics. Right now I am running an Aimpoint reflex co-witnessed with front and rear blip-up BUIS. It is a great and simple setup which Works fine, but I am thinking of making it an even better and simpler setup by changing it out for an ACOG with offset BUIS by Dueck Defense. What I am looking into is an ACOG with a BAC/BDC calibrated for a 16" 5.56. I would like to know what people think about the different available reticle and magnification options. Should I go 3x, 3.5x or 4x? donut, chevron, or circle? The carbine in question is now, and will continue to be, my "go to" gun. I will use it for HomeDef, SHTF, and competition (thought the Grendel is still my big, bad, voodoo daddy war-child rifle).

I am especially eager to hear what people have to say about rapid target acquisition, unconventional shooting positions, durability under abuse, and any other experience they have.

I think 3x ought to be good enough for what you want to use it for. When in doubt look to what the war-fighters are actually using in each environment. Urban I think it's a 3x.

My experience with the ACOG comes from using it on one deployment, one rifle range, and the workups for said deployment. I never shot anyone with it, and only ever had a few guys in my sights, and that was for ID purposes (not terrorists, as it turned out). The Corps uses the 4x version with the red chevron. Its elevation is calculated in meters, and the windage in mils. I wish it would be in yards and MOA, but that's just me. As for shooting at long range >100 YARDS (see how the meters thing is irritating?), it's very nice. The windage gap between the chevron and the horizontal scale is too large to be used accurately unless you're fighting a large crosswind or you're very far away. Actually, now that I look at Trijicon's website, it appears that the civvie versions fix both of my bitches. Isn't that nice...

Some Marines have a hell of a time trying to figure the ACOG out, but I think that it's user error. It's pretty much foolproof, though at 25 yards, when we fire Table 2, 3, and 4 field firing, the 4x power combined with the field of view really narrows your vision down. It's not what I'd want for room clearing. I don't feel under-equipped with it, but it's not my first choice.

If I were selecting optics, here's what I'd look at:
For short range up to 300 yards-an Aimpoint Micro with a magnifier on LaRue's flip to side mount. This gives you both a red dot and a magnifier. The only thing that you're missing is a BDC, which won't matter much at this range.
For ranges above 300 yards-A Nightforce 2.5-10x32. I have one on my EBR, and I'd feel comfortable using it down to 25 yards, probably even closer with practice.

What optics do you have on your Grendel?

doc Russia wrote:Hey all!
What I am looking into is an ACOG with a BAC/BDC calibrated for a 16" 5.56.

Do you want to borrow one? I have the TA-31RCO-M150CP.






Edited to correct ACOG model.

I, too, have a nightforce 2.5-10x scope atop my grendel. I have the offset Dueck Defense sights set up on it right now, and I think it is a great setup. Great scope. You can use it effectively (somewhat) for CQB by covering the objective lens and turning the rheostat on. Works fairly well. I also have the irons so that if I need to work in close, suddenly, I just roll the rifle over 35 degrees, and I am up. Also, if the scope goes down, I have an immediate alternative ready to go.
I wouldn't mind trying an ACOG out. I was looking at the TA-33 most closely. I have heard that the long eye relief is pretty forgiving for unconventional positions.
With respect to your input on sighting options (and I *really* respect your input), My thought on the flip lenses is that it is more complicated, and more prone to breakage. Additionally, the offset irons might not work with it. Also, the Acog doesn't need batteries. I have also thought about a 1-4x short dot scope. The thing is, I want simplicity, reliability and versatility. What I have right is now is simple, resilient and reliable. I would like the maginfication to improve it's versatility, but I think that adding a flip lens to a red dot will only marginally improve it's versatility (No BDC) but at the cost of reliability and simplicity.

doc Russia -

I run a TA33H-G on my carbine; with an offset (cheap, for now) RDS for close range engagements. My theory is that if either sight goes down I have the other, and still have BUIS in a complete GOTH situation. I've used the military issued red chevron versions, and I have to say I much prefer the green horseshoe and dot reticle I settled on.

I'd be more than happy to show up where you compete (I'm in San Antonio) and let you give it a workout - I've been reading your blog for a couple of years now.

This does beg the question... Has anyone heard or read of a report of a highend scope going down? I am sure it has happened, and two is one and one is none and all that but I have only seen folks with battery powered red dots ever need their irons....

I have limited experience with the 4x ACOG with chevron overseas. I found that the 4x was too much for any kind of quick use in an urban environment, but in middle-of-nowhere Iraq it was the bees knees. Never pulled the trigger on anyone with it attached. Most of the deployment I wound up using an M68 CCO. I liked the variable brightness dot, and the fact that it didn't modify. However I did break it-around the 7th month it just wouldn't hold zero. The rest of my time I rolled with flip-up irons on my M4.

I'd looked at optics for my AR awhile ago and really liked the look of the EoTech series. Never did pick one up, my AR never shot well enough to warrant that kind of expenditure. I built a real cheapie.

CByrneIV wrote:

JKosprey wrote:I have limited experience with the 4x ACOG with chevron overseas. I found that the 4x was too much for any kind of quick use in an urban environment, but in middle-of-nowhere Iraq it was the bees knees. Never pulled the trigger on anyone with it attached. Most of the deployment I wound up using an M68 CCO. I liked the variable brightness dot, and the fact that it didn't modify. However I did break it-around the 7th month it just wouldn't hold zero. The rest of my time I rolled with flip-up irons on my M4.

I'd looked at optics for my AR awhile ago and really liked the look of the EoTech series. Never did pick one up, my AR never shot well enough to warrant that kind of expenditure. I built a real cheapie.

You broke the adjusters on a comp m2? how in the hell did that happen, a bomb go off? did it get hit by a truck?

I'm not sure exactly. It's entirely possible that it was always screwed up-. On my pre-mobilization qualification course, I was knocking the targets dead, and then, not. I didn't think much of it, thinking I had choked. I normally qualify 33-35 out of 40 and did roughly the same. The zero may have already started to wander. But otherwise, we did have several IED strikes, which I didn't feel were close enough to have broken the thing, but who knows? I'd be the first to admit operator error, except that immediately after removing the CCO, my groups went from mediocre and all over the place, to, in the words of the rangemaster, "like the tip of a D--k." I never trusted the CCO after that, and our outside-the-wire missions were scarce enough that I never bothered to draw an ACOG from supply.

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure this thing was brand new, out the box. I can't recall. So it can't be blamed on the Reserves getting cheap, ate up equipment either.

It was very weird...and most of the guys around me agreed with your assessment and decided that their medic was a terrible shot...until I started shooting with irons. Wish I could have opened it up to see what really happened. At this point I'll probably never know.