CZ-52 loads ... Grapes of Wrath edition

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Netpackrat
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Re: CZ-52 loads

Post by Netpackrat »

cu74 wrote:Do the 90 grain XTPs have a .308" diameter? As I recall, when you started this project you had .311" XTP bullets.
Yeah, I bought some .308" bullets.
FelixEstrella wrote:As I understand it, the case neck separation issues were solved when the stock spring was replaced with an 18lb Wolff spring.
Interesting. Perhaps the stock spring was getting a bit weak? Or maybe mine has a smoother chamber, or one of any other variables is different... It is completely "as received" other than an aftermarket firing pin.
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Netpackrat
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Re: CZ-52 loads ... Grapes of Wrath edition

Post by Netpackrat »

Resurrecting this because why make a new thread, if a 4 year old one will do?

First off, a note that the last time I fired my CZ-52, I did indeed experience a case neck separation, and had to use a 7.62x39 broken shell remover to get the neck out of the chamber. I didn't have it on me, so that ended my shooting of the Czech Canceler for that day. Didn't buy the Wolff spring, but I did buy a new surplus recoil spring from Apex Gun Parts, which was noticeably stronger/longer than the old spring it replaced. Haven't had it to the range since replacing it, however. :oops:

Now on to the purpose of this exercise in thread necromancy... I decided to give forming 7.62x25 from .223 brass a try just for shits and giggles, and as an exercise in self sufficiency. I have plenty of commercial 7.62x25 brass although most of it is loaded up with XTPs at the moment. It probably makes more sense to just buy Starline, though it doesn't appear to be available at the moment. A google search will actually yield a fair number of websites describing how to do this. My 4th edition Sierra manual even talks about it, since it was published in 1995, before the flood of cheap surplus tok ammo hit the market.

I picked up some apparently once fired commercial .223 brass at the range last year, and finally tumbled it up last night and tried my hand at case forming. Many of these had badly dented and crushed neck/shoulders from being stepped on, but I didn't care about that since the first step in forming is to cut them off to 1" length. Most of the sites I searched recommend using a roller tubing cutter, which seemed to work okay, although they leave a bit of a burr, which will be erased by subsequent steps anyway. Mostly it's just slow. Here's a picture of a case in the tubing cutter, along with the soft jaw pliers I used to grab the brass without gouging it up:

Image

The Lee resizing die had no trouble forming the brass... As some of you may recall, I use a Forster Co-Ax press, and it barely took any force at all. Some of the sites showing how to do this mention removing the entire decap assembly, but if there is a reason to do this with the Lee dies, I can't see it since they don't have an expander on the sizing die, despite being a bottleneck cartridge. Here's a formed case, with some rough cut ones ready for forming:

Image

All of the sites talking about doing this mention the need for reducing case wall thickness at the neck, usually using an inside neck reamer. I bought such a reamer in .308" for my Forster case trimmer, only to discover that it is actually about a .311" reamer. It's made for some other loading operation wherein the necks are reamed prior to sizing, though for the life of me I can't understand why anybody would need to do that.

Using a combination of micrometer, small hole gauges, calipers, and some commercial brass, I determined that the reamer I actually need should be about .302" (letter N) to make the neck wall thickness the same as the commercial brass. Trimmed to the same length as the commercial brass, and after expanding, I should be able to use the same crimp die adjustment, and not have to worry about feeding problems due to neck thickness. Custom reamer is on order from Forster (at a cost which would have bought about 200 pieces of Starline brass, hmm :roll: ).

A couple other things I discovered... My Forster case trimmer is too long to trim 7.62x25 to length... I have to order a shorter base. That and the new reamer should allow me to ream and trim in one step. They make an adapter for a power screwdriver which I am probably going to buy, and which would have saved me a lot of time trimming .308 cases a while back. I like that idea a lot better than the drill press setup that Forster sells.

Also, there is this site which shows all the steps in forming Tok from .223. He uses an outside neck reamer to accomplish the same thing as I am doing with the inside reamer. He's also got a link to a miniature chop saw from Harbor Fright, which may be just the thing for doing a cleaner, faster job of trimming the cases to length prior to forming. You could rig a depth stop, and cut them pretty fast. I think I'm going to get one, because it would be useful for a lot of other things as well.

Who knows, with the power tools it may be possible to convert the cases over fast enough for it to actually make some small amount of sense.
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Denis
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Re: CZ-52 loads ... Grapes of Wrath edition

Post by Denis »

Interesting. Thanks for the update, NPR! I like the idea of using that little chopsaw.

This reminds me, has anybody heard from Felix? His last post was in January 2012...
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Re: CZ-52 loads ... Grapes of Wrath edition

Post by Netpackrat »

I'm also actively looking for a bullet mold, so I can cast my own bullets for this. There's several Lee molds that might work, as long as I size down from .311"/.312" to .309" or so. Those are all out of stock everywhere, so ordering would just be reserving my place in line. There's an RCBS mold made for the .30 Mauser that casts an 85 grain bullet, that should be near ideal, except it is listed as a .308 bullet, which my bore slugs at. I'd like another thou to ensure a good gas seal, but we'll see what size it actually throws, because I am pretty sure that's the one I am going to order.

One of the reasons why I don't shoot this pistol more is because I have had to buy jacketed bullets for it. There are several options that all cost about the same, so for the same price I have figured why not just use XTPs exclusively, but they're not particularly cheap as far as handloads go. An 85 grain, .30 cal bullet will make more efficient use of my remaining stockpile of lead than just about any other caliber I shoot, on a shot for shot basis.

The other reason why I don't shoot it more is because for now I have to reload my tok ammo on a single stage press. Dillon doesn't (refuses to, actually - I asked them about it once) make a tok caliber conversion for my SDB progressive press, and until/unless I move to a house with a bigger shop, I won't have room to physically add a more versatile progressive press to my bench. I think it's technically feasible to convert the SDB over, given enough careful selection of parts and some lathe work, but I won't have room for a lathe until I move, either. And the cost of hiring it out would probably buy a new press, anyway. Bottom line, is the SDB press that made a lot of sense when I was in college and only loading a couple of handgun calibers is kind of a drag today (kicks self again for not having bought an XL650).
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blackeagle603
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Re: CZ-52 loads ... Grapes of Wrath edition

Post by blackeagle603 »

This reminds me, has anybody heard from Felix? His last post was in January 2012...


Talked to him via email and facebook a month or two ago.
Good, I've wondered. On a related note, checked up and talked at length with Dedicated Dad recently. He's doing much better physically (knee and pain mgmt) and is in a good place now -- finally.
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Re: CZ-52 loads ... Grapes of Wrath edition

Post by Rumpshot »

blackeagle603 wrote:
This reminds me, has anybody heard from Felix? His last post was in January 2012...


Talked to him via email and facebook a month or two ago.
Good, I've wondered. On a related note, checked up and talked at length with Dedicated Dad recently. He's doing much better physically (knee and pain mgmt) and is in a good place now -- finally.
Good, I have often wondered how things were going for him.
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Netpackrat
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Re: CZ-52 loads ... Grapes of Wrath edition

Post by Netpackrat »

Guys, I miss them too, but focus please... Handloading going on here.
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Re: CZ-52 loads ... Grapes of Wrath edition

Post by Precision »

Netpackrat wrote:Guys, I miss them too, but focus please... Handloading going on here.
Yes, I hear lack of focus during handloading is a BIG no no. :D
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Re: CZ-52 loads

Post by Combat Controller »

cu74 wrote:Lyman 48th Reloading Handbook only lists three bullets: Hornady 86 gr FMJ (#1502), Hornady 93 gr. FMJ (#1419) and Hornady(?) cast bullet #313249, 85 gr., sized up to .311" diameter.

Unique listed at:
5.0 - 6.2 for the 86 gr. FMJ
5.0 - 6.3 for the 93 gr. FMJ
4.6 - 6.0 for the 85 gr. cast bullet

Hope this helps.....

Man, that's the load for 230 grain ball for .45!
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Re: CZ-52 loads ... Grapes of Wrath edition

Post by Netpackrat »

So, most of the stuff I need has arrived. I bought the chop saw, but I don't currently have any more .223 cases to try in it. Maybe I can pick some up at the range. The weather has been better and the wife/baby are out of town for spring break visiting her family, so maybe I can make it out there next week. I'd hoped to have the Suomi ready to try but that's on hold until my shim stock arrives. So I'll maybe go out and blaze away with the AK as an excuse to go pick up brass.

A guy on another forum where I posted about this posted a link to a neat jig that is used with the chop saw by guys forming .300 blackout. There are also various homebrew versions out there. I will probably come up with something similar.

I've had the RCBS .30 Mauser bullet mold and handles for a while now, and the size dies for my lubri-sizer (I bought both .308 and .309) finally showed up today. I found a short base for my Forster case trimmer at Sinclair, plus I got a power attachment that will let me run it with my cordless driver. Still waiting on the custom neck reamer that I ordered from Forster. No telling how long that will take to arrive.
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