Herters oddball shotgun ammo

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Rich Jordan
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Herters oddball shotgun ammo

Post by Rich Jordan »

I just found an indoor range about 40 minutes away that is fine with shotguns as long as you are not shooting birdshot (#4 buck or larger). So I'm going to take the KSG there to function test it (finally). Outdoor ranges are 2+ hours away and I just haven't had time.

I went to Cabelas today to pick up more slug and buck ammo for the test. Found a couple oddballs from Herters.

Mini-buckshot. 2-1/4" shell, 6 each 00-Buck pellets at 1250fps. These are larger than the Aguila minishells, which may mean they won't increase the loaded count by much (if at all) but worth a try. Lower recoil. If they're reliable and increase the loaded round count they might be worth consideration for some situations.

The other one is called 'Multi-defense', a 2-3/4" load with 6 pellets of #1 buck and one .650 round ball at 1300fps. I guess if you have a chance of running into a bear, or a smaller critter that you don't mind blowing a big hole through, its just the thing but that big ball probably makes it unsuitable for home defense.... too much likely penetration. WTH is this load for? A modern buck-and-ball?

I couldn't resist and bought one box each (10 rounds) to try at the range...
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Denis
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Re: Herters oddball shotgun ammo

Post by Denis »

Splendid. Be sure to take along a camera - it'll be interesting to see what they do on targets. Happy shooting.
Precision
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Re: Herters oddball shotgun ammo

Post by Precision »

They made it, because someone would buy it. You.

I think that design is supposed to be for home defense. Knock down power of a slug but faster deformation being round and some scatter with the small ball. Sounds like a solution looking for a problem, but hey, if people buy it, why not.
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evan price
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Re: Herters oddball shotgun ammo

Post by evan price »

The mini buck shells get me one extra in my Mossberg 500 and recoil is light enough mrs price approves. I fired a couple boxes holding the mossberg at weird angles and upside down and tried to short stroke it to try to cause a malfunction. It worked 100%.
Only six pellets instead of nine or fifteen but it works.
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MarkD
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Re: Herters oddball shotgun ammo

Post by MarkD »

Just some speculation on the buck-and-ball load:

Depending on how soft the large ball is, over penetration may not be too much of an issue, it would either deform or fragment especially if it hits bone. Round balls slow down quickly, they're the lowest mass you can get on a given bore diameter.

I'd imagine it would work moderately well (at least as well as any lightly loaded shotgun round, and better than most) on someone wearing body armor. It still wouldn't penetrate, but him him COM and I bet it'll take some time to get his breath back. Especially at the conversational distances usually in play during home-defense situations.

Of course if you're going to use buck-and-ball, you really ought to mount a bayonet, just for historical purposes.
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HTRN
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Re: Herters oddball shotgun ammo

Post by HTRN »

Hmm, I wonder if anybody can convince federal to make their #1 buck flight control load in a 2 and a quarter inch package?
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Darrell
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Re: Herters oddball shotgun ammo

Post by Darrell »

Buck and ball has quite a history, actually:
Purpose[edit]

The intent of the buck and ball load was to combine the devastating impact of the full-size (normally .50 to. 70 caliber, depending on the specific gun) ball with the spreading pattern of a shotgun, and served to greatly improve the hit probability of the smoothbore musket used in combat, especially at closer ranges, where the buckshot would retain significant energy, and against closely packed troops where the spread of the buckshot would be advantageous.

Claud E. Fuller, in his book The Rifled Musket, shows tests of a rifled musket firing Minie balls, and a smoothbore musket firing round ball and buck rounds at various ranges against a 10' x 10' target. The firers consisted of several men in line shooting in volley. At ranges of 200 yards (180 m) and under, the buck and ball from the smoothbore musket, while less accurate than the rifled musket, actually produces a greater number of hits due to the greater number of projectiles. At 200 yards, 37 of 50 Minie balls strike the target, vs. 18 of 50 smoothbore balls and 31 of 150 buckshot, for a total of 49 hits in 50 shots. At 100 yards, 50 shots by smoothbore buck and ball against the 10 x 10 target result in 79 buckshot hits and 37 ball strikes, as opposed to 48 minie ball hits in 50 shots. Beyond this range, the buckshot will have lost too much energy to be effective due to its lower ballistic coefficient.
If George Washington liked it, well, so should you:
Use[edit]

Perhaps the most famous proponent of the buck and ball loading was George Washington, who encouraged his troops to load their muskets with buck and ball loads during the American Revolution. The Union Irish Brigade retained their smoothbore muskets until late in the American Civil War so they could fire buck and ball during the relatively close range battles. The buck and ball load was standard issue throughout the Seminole Wars of 1815 - 1845. With the advent of general issue rifled muskets in the American Civil War, and longer engagement ranges during the later stages of the war, the buck and ball loading began to fade from use. Buck and ball did see action in the remaining inventory of smoothbore muskets at Gettysburg and later actions. The effective Irish Brigade use of buck and ball against Pickett's Charge is notable. The buck and ball load has been replaced in current military inventories by standard buckshot loadings in the combat shotgun.
Modern resurgence[edit]

Modern ammunition manufacturers have recently re-discovered Buck and Ball type shotgun loads, and have been manufacturing defensive shotgun ammunition which largely duplicates the properties of the historical loads. As an example Winchester's PDX1 12 gauge load features three 00-buck copper plated pellets over a one-ounce slug. Similar ammunition is produced by Centurion, called "Multi Defense Buckshot."[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_and_ball

At Pickett's Charge too! Fascinating. 8-)
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Rich Jordan
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Re: Herters oddball shotgun ammo

Post by Rich Jordan »

MarkD wrote:Just some speculation on the buck-and-ball load:

Depending on how soft the large ball is, over penetration may not be too much of an issue, it would either deform or fragment especially if it hits bone. Round balls slow down quickly, they're the lowest mass you can get on a given bore diameter.

I'd imagine it would work moderately well (at least as well as any lightly loaded shotgun round, and better than most) on someone wearing body armor. It still wouldn't penetrate, but him him COM and I bet it'll take some time to get his breath back. Especially at the conversational distances usually in play during home-defense situations.

Of course if you're going to use buck-and-ball, you really ought to mount a bayonet, just for historical purposes.
Could do but not on the KSG; I'd have to use the chinese trench gun replica. Of course that would impact maneuverability in a home environment... That shotgun ripped Aguila minishells apart, leaving the hull in the chamber and ejecting the metal base. No such issue with any other load. I didn't buy enough to test both guns though so I think the KSG wins. I know the chi-trench works.
Rich Jordan
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Re: Herters oddball shotgun ammo

Post by Rich Jordan »

Precision wrote:They made it, because someone would buy it. You.

I think that design is supposed to be for home defense. Knock down power of a slug but faster deformation being round and some scatter with the small ball. Sounds like a solution looking for a problem, but hey, if people buy it, why not.
You got me there. But just one box of each to try, and also to see if it will increase the capacity of the KSG.

A number of companies make tactical buck loads that provide reduced recoil and have only eight -00 pellets instead of nine. I'd guess that six pellets is still going to be an effective short range load but its just a guess.
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Netpackrat
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Re: Herters oddball shotgun ammo

Post by Netpackrat »

The 8 pellet 00 loads don't make a whole lot of sense to me, given that 00 buckshot naturally stacks in layers of 3 in a 12 gauge shell.
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