9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

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9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby Precision » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:23 pm

I was bored and was looking up the characteristics of these calibers.

For comparisons sake: (all +/- 124 grain)

9x19 consistently in the 1150 - 1200 FPS range
9x21 consistently in the 1225 - 1275 FPS range
.38 super consistently in the 1300 - 1350 FPS range
9x23 consistently in the 1300 - 1350 FPS range

.357 magnum consistently in the 1500 - 1600 FPS range
... with a couple WAY higher -- 22 gr H110 at 1966 FPS being the highest
... not counting for durability of the actual bullet - that is 30-30 territory.

For comparisons sake: (all +/- 148 grain)

9x19 consistently in the 1000 - 1050 FPS range
9x21 consistently in the 1100 - 1150 FPS range
.38 super consistently in the 1150 - 1200 FPS range
9x23 consistently in the 1300 FPS range

.357 magnum consistently in the 1350 - 1450 FPS range
... with a couple WAY higher -- 17.2 gr H110 at 1691 being the highest

First Question are those top end loads with a 6 inch barrel or a 16inch (or longer carbine)

second, why bother with 9x21. In exchange for a custom gun you buy roughly 100 FPS extra. Purely a competition round?

9x23 (and .38 Super) makes a lot more sense although there is a note on the 147 gr load info that says the bullet is too lightly constructed to properly utilize the velocity in the JHP they used. Severe fragmentation.

ETA - all load information from[url]Handloads.com[/url]
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby Aglifter » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:57 pm

A) Your speeds look a little low for 9x23 and 38 Super, major.

B) I suspect a HAP bullet might hold up, if you can find one in 147. I tried some 125gr HAP out on water jugs, loaded to major, and they remained intact, and made it into the cardboard behind the third water jug.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby Aglifter » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:59 pm

9x23 is an excellent cartridge, and a Jeff Cooper design. It can take tremendous pressures if you wish to load it to that level (it's cut-down 223 brass.)

It would have solved quite a few issues for USPSA/IPSC, but it didn't work out.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby mousegun » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:59 pm

The source info is shakey at best. Start by looking at factory spec.s; they at least usually are based on a SAAMI standard barrel length. The 357 data for example is out of a carbine not a revolver. It doesn't compare to say 9X23 which is not to my knowledge offered in any carbine platform.

If you look at various reloading manuals, you will see some variations in barrel length for any given caliber. You will also see some drastic differences in load data for any given caliber too.

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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby mousegun » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:59 pm

Aglifter wrote:9x23 is an excellent cartridge, and a Jeff Cooper design. It can take tremendous pressures if you wish to load it to that level (it's cut-down 223 brass.)

It would have solved quite a few issues for USPSA/IPSC, but it didn't work out.


Yeah, too damned loud.

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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby randy » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:20 pm

second, why bother with 9x21. In exchange for a custom gun you buy roughly 100 FPS extra. Purely a competition round?


in the US, not much. In countries that ban civilian possession of "military" ammo....
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby Aglifter » Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:43 pm

It was more a supply issue, than a noise issue - shorty open guns are LOUD all on their own.

Winchester, and someone who claimed to have invented the cartridge got in a law suit over royalties (I think the private party might have created the name 9x23, but, TMK, the first version of the cartridge was the "Super Cooper", created by Jeff Cooper.)

It would have solved any safety concerns over making major, even under the old 175PF standard, possible feeding problems w. 38 super can have, and got around any military caliber concerns - it would have also made an easy caliber to use when matches have "match ammo" - some foreign matches tend to do this, but sometimes the ammo won't work in everyone's guns/won't make PF in everyone's guns.

Of course, I also think limited should be w. 10MM - I was told there are too many variations in brass length.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby Precision » Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:41 pm

Buffalo Bore has some .357 125 gr at 1700 FPS and some 158 gr at 1475 FPS

................has some .38 Super +P 125 gr at 1350 FPS and some 147 gr at 1150 FPS

................some 9x19 +P+ FMJ FN 24 gr "penetrators" at 1300 FPS

It has been suggested that the ramped up 9mm cases are to replicate .357 performance, but they seem to be quite a bit low even with the extended cases.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby Aglifter » Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:33 pm

9MM Major usually cuts it pretty close to the 160PF, and it a fairly risky cartridge. Personally, I think it was probably discrimination against the 38 Super, and wanting to allow a use for the 40 S&W, but limited, supposedly, has a .40 caliber requirement to preclude people trying to load "stock" 9MM guns up to major.


Those 38 Super +p speeds are for minor - Taurus, and probably Colt, max out at 125 gr. and 1350 fps - which makes 168 PF, and modern major.

A more typical major load is 125 gr at 1400 - 1450 if you're loading like the 175 PF era.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby HTRN » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:49 pm

9x23 was one of several efforts made to solve some of the headaches of 38 Supers semi rimless design. If you've got a 38 super, you can probably run 9x23 in your gun without mods. The other two notable attempts to deal with the occasionally persnickty 38 Super is 38 TJ(Todd Jarrett) and 38 Super Comp. They'res also a .38 Super Lapua. They all fall under the basic category of "Rimless 38 Super", with often very minor dimensional variations. For example, going by this page, the only difference externally between Starlines Super Comp and TJ brass is the diameter of the extractor cut.

If you want to push something faster than the previously mentioned velocities, there's 9x25 Dillon - a bottlenecked 10mm(think the same relationship between 357 Sig and .40S&W). It will reportedly drive a 124 grn bullet at 1700 ft/sec. Be warned - the cartridge was originally developed to easily meet the old, higher "Major" power factor, but was quickly dropped because it had the nasty habit of eating parts, giving tendonitis, and was extremely loud in compensated guns. Add in the mag capacity lost compared 9mm diameter cartridges, and it's fall from grace is fairly easy to understand.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby SoupOrMan » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:06 pm

HTRN wrote:9x23 was one of several efforts made to solve some of the headaches of 38 Supers semi rimless design. If you've got a 38 super, you can probably run 9x23 in your gun without mods. The other two notable attempts to deal with the occasionally persnickty 38 Super is 38 TJ(Todd Jarrett) and 38 Super Comp. They'res also a .38 Super Lapua. They all fall under the basic category of "Rimless 38 Super", with often very minor dimensional variations. For example, going by this page, the only difference externally between Starlines Super Comp and TJ brass is the diameter of the extractor cut.

If you want to push something faster than the previously mentioned velocities, there's 9x25 Dillon - a bottlenecked 10mm(think the same relationship between 357 Sig and .40S&W). It will reportedly drive a 124 grn bullet at 1700 ft/sec. Be warned - the cartridge was originally developed to easily meet the old, higher "Major" power factor, but was quickly dropped because it had the nasty habit of eating parts, giving tendonitis, and was extremely loud in compensated guns. Add in the mag capacity lost compared 9mm diameter cartridges, and it's fall from grace is fairly easy to understand.


9x25 Dillon sounds like a fun carbine cartridge, almost as fun as the one that necks a .45 Winchester Magnum down to a .40 bullet. I forget what that one is normally called, though.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby Aglifter » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:19 pm

Well, there are a few thousand USPSA Open shooters who run those loads on a regular basis - the majors will certainly blow out in an unsupported chamber - but I don't know if they're really that unsafe in a gun built for them.

I shoot w. several folks who have 40K+ rounds through their open guns of those loads, the most reliable gun I own is an open gun that has ~7K of those rounds through it (by me, plus whatever the prior owner ran) - all w.o. any real problems.

I suppose the breech face can show some wear after several thousand rounds, but not much. Most of the guns should last between 60 to 100K, and that's usually the rails getting too loose. (You can have them accurailed, etc, but most folks seem to just buy another gun at that point.)

I've never heard of anyone shooting their gun out of timing, or until the lugs were battered. Recoil springs need to be replaced, of course - usually every 3 to 5K...
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby blackeagle603 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:34 am

@ Souperman: .400 Corbon is what you're thinking of.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby HTRN » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:25 pm

Aglifter wrote:Well, there are a few thousand USPSA Open shooters who run those loads on a regular basis - the majors will certainly blow out in an unsupported chamber - but I don't know if they're really that unsafe in a gun built for them.


Out of curiousity, I checked Hodgdon's online manual. The max velocity listed for a 38 Super firing a 125grn LCN is 1379 ft/sec. using 14.0 grains of compressed Lil' gun. Pressure is listed as 30,500 CUP. (Max pressure in CUP for the Super is 33,000 CUP). Currently, you need 1320/ft sec with a 125grn bullet to make major.

That said, Lil" gun seems to be the only powder listed that gets past the 1300 ft/sec barrier among the listed data, with the second fastest being over 100 ft/sec slower, and higher pressure to boot.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby SoupOrMan » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:40 am

blackeagle603 wrote:@ Souperman: .400 Corbon is what you're thinking of.


I thought .400 Cor-Bon was .45 ACP necked to .40, not .45 WinMag.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby SoupOrMan » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:08 pm

And while I'm thinking about stuff like this, why haven't the boffins ever put together a rimless .357 Magnum for the PDW crowd? They could use the same cartridge dimensions, just rimless to feed into a semi-auto or automatic weapon.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby Jered » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:13 pm

SoupOrMan wrote:And while I'm thinking about stuff like this, why haven't the boffins ever put together a rimless .357 Magnum for the PDW crowd? They could use the same cartridge dimensions, just rimless to feed into a semi-auto or automatic weapon.


Something like .30 carbine?
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby blackeagle603 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:17 pm

I thought .400 Cor-Bon was .45 ACP necked to .40, not .45 WinMag.


That's correct. The "Mag" part of that didn't register with me.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby Combat Controller » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:42 pm

You forgot to compare .357 sig in your listings. Fast Rope had some 124's going 1600 fps out of his 5 inch XD IIRC.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby mousegun » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:48 pm

SoupOrMan wrote:And while I'm thinking about stuff like this, why haven't the boffins ever put together a rimless .357 Magnum for the PDW crowd? They could use the same cartridge dimensions, just rimless to feed into a semi-auto or automatic weapon.

Basically a 351 WSL but in true rimless and true 357 diameter.

You MIGHT be able to do it with a 223 head diameter and brass but it's gonna be real close.

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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby HTRN » Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:28 pm

CombatController wrote:You forgot to compare .357 sig in your listings. Fast Rope had some 124's going 1600 fps out of his 5 inch XD IIRC.


Max loads listed by Hodgdon is around 1450 with a 124. Either he has a "fast" barrel, or he's over the limit.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby SoupOrMan » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:52 pm

mousegun wrote:
SoupOrMan wrote:And while I'm thinking about stuff like this, why haven't the boffins ever put together a rimless .357 Magnum for the PDW crowd? They could use the same cartridge dimensions, just rimless to feed into a semi-auto or automatic weapon.

Basically a 351 WSL but in true rimless and true 357 diameter.

You MIGHT be able to do it with a 223 head diameter and brass but it's gonna be real close.


I looked at that once and it's a tight fit. They'd be better off with a case that matches the .357 Magnum's dimensions exactly excepting the rim of course.

Also, the Ammo Encyclopedia that was selling used on Amazon for $400 is now in print again in paperback. I think it's around $20 or so now.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby Combat Controller » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:04 am

His primers weren't flattened and I have run them over my chrony as well. It's pretty impressive.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby SoupOrMan » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:00 pm

I've gotten 1150fps out of 5.5 grains of Universal under a 180-grain bullet from my .40 S&W 1911 before if my chronograph is to be believed. The indoor temperature was about 93 and the indoor lighting kit did nothing to help eliminate the errors when I was trying it out.

I suspect there was something else going on and I was getting a bad reading off of the chronograph (Chrony Gamma Master) when those bullets went through. Otherwise I have to wonder if I broke some physical laws of the universe.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby SoupOrMan » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:44 am

CByrneIV wrote:
SoupOrMan wrote:I've gotten 1150fps out of 5.5 grains of Universal under a 180-grain bullet from my .40 S&W 1911 before if my chronograph is to be believed. The indoor temperature was about 93 and the indoor lighting kit did nothing to help eliminate the errors when I was trying it out.

I suspect there was something else going on and I was getting a bad reading off of the chronograph (Chrony Gamma Master) when those bullets went through. Otherwise I have to wonder if I broke some physical laws of the universe.


1150fps from a 5" .40 S&W 180gr is perfectly believable; though not with that powder and chargeweight.


That's what surprised me. I checked the rest of the unfired loads out of that batch of 50, they all had the same powder and weight. It's why I think it was an error with the chronograph as I got similar results when testing out the recipe. I would have expected it if I loaded it with 7 grains of Longshot, but not the Universal.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby FastRope71 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:22 pm

HTRN wrote:
CombatController wrote:You forgot to compare .357 sig in your listings. Fast Rope had some 124's going 1600 fps out of his 5 inch XD IIRC.


Max loads listed by Hodgdon is around 1450 with a 124. Either he has a "fast" barrel, or he's over the limit.


Setup was as follows:
XD with a 6" Bar-sto barrel
125 gr montana gold 357 sig purpose built bullet
fresh Starline brass
CCI small pistol primers
Longshot and/or AA#9 powders can't remember which ~.1-.2 gr below book max
Temp was over 100*f, so probably a factor

Primers flattened somewhat, but not dramatically. They definitely didn't flow.
I saw speeds close to 1600FPS, but I don't think we actually breached that mark. none the less it was pretty astounding.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby Combat Controller » Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:45 pm

HTRN wrote:
CombatController wrote:You forgot to compare .357 sig in your listings. Fast Rope had some 124's going 1600 fps out of his 5 inch XD IIRC.


Max loads listed by Hodgdon is around 1450 with a 124. Either he has a "fast" barrel, or he's over the limit.


Bah, that's liability prone lawyer stuff.
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Re: 9x19 vs 9x21 vs .38 Super vs 9x23 vs .357 mag

Postby SoupOrMan » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:04 pm

CombatController wrote:
HTRN wrote:
CombatController wrote:You forgot to compare .357 sig in your listings. Fast Rope had some 124's going 1600 fps out of his 5 inch XD IIRC.


Max loads listed by Hodgdon is around 1450 with a 124. Either he has a "fast" barrel, or he's over the limit.


Bah, that's liability prone lawyer stuff.


I think that liability is the main reason why Hodgdon never publishes its .357 Magnum loads that use LilGun as rifle loads, only as pistol loads. The awesomeness may be too much to contain for an 1892-style action. Seriously, though, a 158-grain bullet going 1600-1750 fps? That's a lot of ouch out of the end of a rifle.
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