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 Post subject: Les Baer .264 LBC-AR vs. the 6.5 Grendel
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:58 am 
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Taken from The Firearm Blog

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.264 LBC-AR: A Grendel clone
Les Baer Custom has cloned the 6.5mm Grendel and named their creation the .264 LBC-AR. So why would Les Baer, who were well known for producing quality licensed 6.5mm Grendel AR-15 rifles, start competing with Alexander Arms? Let me tell you why.

Back in the late 90s Arne Brennan developed a 6.5mm wildcat cartridge based on the 6mm PPC (a cartridge with a well earned reputation as a highly accurate benchrest cartridge). This first generation cartridge spawned a stable of almost identical and, in fact, compatible cartridges. These include the 6.5mm PPCX, 6.5mm BPC and 6.5mm CSS.

Bill Alexander then worked with Arne Brennan to develop a fine tuned version of his cartridge for the AR-15 platform. The result was the 6.5mm Grendel. Bill's company, Alexander Arms, trademarked the name and so no firearm company can use the Grendel name without paying royalties to AA. This is significantly different to the vast majority of cartridges, such as the .223 Rem. or .375 H&H, which do not require royalties.

Back in 2006 the majority stake in Alexander Arms was bought by investment Venture Cross Capital. Bill Alexander now owns just 31% of Alexander Arms. An industry source tells me that a couple of years ago Les Baer had an altercation with the new owner of AA. Because of this Les and his legal team research the trademark claims and concluded that AA only owned the name, not the cartridge design.

Les then cloned the 6.5mm Grendel and named it the.264 LBC-AR. The LBC-AR differs slightly from the Grendel in that it has a .295 neck (as used by the 6.5mm CSS) and a 1 degree throat angle (as used by the 6.5mm PPCX).

I contacted Les Baer Custom and they confirmed that the .264 LBC-AR and 6.5mm Grendel are fully compatible. It was telling in their communications with me that they fastidiously avoided actually using the word "Grendel". I have not doubt that their legal team is not going to give AA any excuse to take them to court!

The current .264 LBC-AR on the market is loaded by Black Hills using brass made by Hornady. Hornady is apparently developing a Super Performance load for the .264.

The 6.5mm Grendel has a large following. Many would like to see it adopted as by the US Military for the next-generation carbine. Each new commercially produced clone of the 6.5mm Grendel makes it that much harder for AA to profit from the military adoption of a 6.5mm PPC-derived cartridge. It will be interesting to hear what AA think of the LBC-AR. I ask them for a comment but they declined to reply to my request. I have it on good authority that the LBC-AR is not be the mystery 6.5mm cartridge that the Remington / Bushmaster ACR will chamber, my money still is on a necked down version of the .30 RAR.

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This is like the VHS vs. BETA wars for recording tape dominance...Propriety isn't good when you have such fierce and varied performers on the 6 and 6.5mm cartridges...Rigby pulled the same stunt with the 7x57 Mauser and the .275 Rigby and Les Baer just did the same thing...WAY TO GO LES BAER!!!

It must really pain Bill Alexander, especially now that he can't even make any decisions within his old company--31% shares...

Now, we may some movement on this cartridge instead of the stagnant morass that it had sunk into...Is it the best out there--not even close but it is way up the ladder from the rest and comparing it to the Remington 6.8 SPC isn't fair as they're not the same diameter .264 vs .270...Which one will win the AR Platform cartridge War--I'd say Remington just because they really marketed their round to the public where Alexander kept it to very few and select makers/dealers with more emphasis for BR, F-Class and Palma rifles as well as the AR platform...When it's eight or ten makers/dealers to one it's hard to compete against those odds, not impossible, just hard...Thing could also go to someone we've never heard of with a super duper new designer cartridge in .257 or .260 Fliegelhundt Kurtz or some such...

With Les Baer going this route we'll see a lot more action generated for the cartridge just as the .264 LBC instead of 6.5 Grendel...It performs the same, that's all I'd care about and they are/do...

I'm really happy to see this finally come to a head but there still is one who has to be convinced -- DOD and that could take years and it has many times in the past re weapons or cartridges/calibres!!!



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 Post subject: Re: Les Baer .264 LBC-AR vs. the 6.5 Grendel
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:12 pm 
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Ah, the smell of trademark litigation in the morning. Better even than fresh coffee. ;-)

SeekHer, how's your new grandaughter doing? Has number 2 arrived yet?


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 Post subject: Re: Les Baer .264 LBC-AR vs. the 6.5 Grendel
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Denis wrote:
Ah, the smell of trademark litigation in the morning. Better even than fresh coffee. ;-)

SeekHer, how's your new grandaughter doing? Has number 2 arrived yet?


Oh most certainly, the number two arrives around eight times a day :lol: :oops:

She's doing great, finally getting US into a eating/sleeping/pooping routine -- the kid (my daughter) breast feeds her, flops back to sleep and I do the walking and burping and changing for the 0400 and 0600 feedings as I'm always up then..

During the day S-I-L is at work but there are lots of bodies around to look after her (both hers) but will have to see about next week....

We're leaving almost end of the week for Calif...

Don't figure it will pop until at least the 15th to 18th...Everyone is flying out of here this weekend, his siblings late Sat, his parents Sun aft., we late next Thurs night and her sisters on next Sunday but they won't be around much this week anyway with a whole bunch of things they have planned to do so it should figure almost like they're not here...

If we have to, depending on how the daughter is coping etc. my wife would stay here helping out and I'll go alone to SFO for that birth...

It's fun typing with one hand and holding an infant in the other...her feet make perfect key strokes....

E-mail forthcoming...



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 Post subject: Re: Les Baer .264 LBC-AR vs. the 6.5 Grendel
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:16 pm 
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SeekHer wrote:
...the number two arrives around eight times a day :lol: :oops:


LOL. I should have seen that coming...

Glad all's well - you sound like a happy grandpa!


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 Post subject: Re: Les Baer .264 LBC-AR vs. the 6.5 Grendel
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:37 am 
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Ah yes! The military ammo debate! It's only been going on for over 100 years.

FWIW, if not for the intransigence of the US Army Ordnance Corps (note to BHO, that is pronounced "Core" not "Corpse"), we would have had an intermediate power combat rifle round somewhere between 6.5mm and 7mm back in 1955. The .308 Win would have died a natural death (no real difference between the .300 Savage and .30-06 to warrant an existence), as would have the .222 Remington Magnum (which became the 5.56 NATO with some minor mods).

The British did extensive ballistics tests at the end of WW2, since they clearly had the most obsolete cartridge of the day -- .303 which was introduced about 1885 or so. They tested the (then) new .30 cal Russian (7.62x39) and the 8mm German (7.92 Kurz) and determined that an intermediate power cartridge of about .280 caliber (7mm) gave the optimum performance for a combat round http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_British. FN Engineers, who had spent their vacation from German occupation in the UK, were involved in much of this work, so they went back to Belgium to design a proper rifle for this round -- the FAL.

The US Army wanted the .308, but the British felt it was too high power to be controllable on FA fire. The US Army insisted on .30-06 performance out to 500m or so.

When the US Army nixed the .280 British, Saive and his team had to significantly redesign the FAL to take the much higher power .308 Win round. After stuffing the .308 Win down NATO's throat, the US Army used it for about 6 years in a combat rifle (M14), and then we went to the 5.56 NATO because the .308 Win was too high power to be controllable on FA fire.

Some other notable 6.5mm cartridges:
6.5x54MS (Dutch & Greek military) 1903
6.5x55 (Swedish military) 1891
6.5x50 (Japanese military) 1897
.257 Roberts (sporting)
.264 Win Magnum (sporting)
.260 Remington (sporting)
6.5 Remington Magnum (sporting)

Some notable 6.8mm cartriges:
.270 Win (sporting)
.270 Wby Mag (sporting)
.270 WSM (sporting)
6.8 Rem SPC (? wannabee military)

Some notable 7mm cartriges:
7x57 (Spanish, Chilean military)
7mm Rem Mag (sporting)
7mm Wby Mag (sporting)
7mm WSM (sporting)
7mm-08 (sporting)
.280 Rem (sporting)
.280 British (dead - wannabee military)

Note to Mods - this probably belongs under "Ammo & Reloading"



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 Post subject: Re: Les Baer .264 LBC-AR vs. the 6.5 Grendel
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:22 am 
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How could I forget the most famous 6.5mm cartridge of all time!

6.5x52mm Carcano (Italian military)

This under-rated cartridge is undoubtedly one of the most accurate rounds ever produced, as it was responsible for one of the most amazing feats of marksmanship in history -- 3 shots in under 7 seconds, resulting in 3 hits at a moving target from 70m to 100m as the target was accelerating away.



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 Post subject: Re: Les Baer .264 LBC-AR vs. the 6.5 Grendel
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:29 am 
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I'd prefer the 6.8SPC over the Grendel, but neither are affordable for most folks right now.

Competition would change that, and Martha Stewart says "That's a good thing."



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 Post subject: Re: Les Baer .264 LBC-AR vs. the 6.5 Grendel
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:02 pm 
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They could call it the 6.5 Ham Sandwich for all I care. I just want an upper and some ammo to run through it.

Of course if I buy a house soon, I'll be crossing off pretty much everything off the want list for a few more years.



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 Post subject: Re: Les Baer .264 LBC-AR vs. the 6.5 Grendel
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:27 pm 
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I've got it. Just call it the "6.5 Splunge!"

It's not the 6.5 Grendel/ 6.5x39/ 6.5 CSS, but it's also not the .264 LBC-AR/ 6.5 PPC/ 6.5 Sporter but at the same time is exactly the right ammunition for all involved!



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 Post subject: Re: Les Baer .264 LBC-AR vs. the 6.5 Grendel
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:53 pm 
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DSCAV -- you also missed the .276 Petersen and the .280 Ross and the .25 WSSM as well as all the RUM and RSUM versions...

There were the Newton chambering also...



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