USS Fitzgerald

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USS Fitzgerald

Postby skb12172 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:05 am

The 7 missing sailors were found drowned in their berths. Skipper was airlifted and is in stable condition.

I guess it's a given his career is over. Any guess as to how this happened?

Missing Fitzgerald sailors found dead in flooded compartments - CNN
https://apple.news/Af2PaDohzQEqurbkjex-Dww
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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Netpackrat » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:27 am

From what I was reading earlier, it looked as though the cargo ship missed with its first ramming attempt, then came around, and was more successful the second time.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Jered » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:42 am

According to BBC here:
Marine traffic records suggest the ACX Crystal made a sudden U-turn roughly 25 minutes before the collision with the USS Fitzgerald. It is not clear why it changed course.


Here is the traffic record
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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Jericho941 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:23 am

Jered wrote:According to BBC here:
Marine traffic records suggest the ACX Crystal made a sudden U-turn roughly 25 minutes before the collision with the USS Fitzgerald. It is not clear why it changed course.


Here is the traffic record


........was the boat captained by the caffeine spider?

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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Netpackrat » Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:46 am

Wouldn't be totally surprised if it turns out the guy conning the freighter was from Mindanao or a similar locale.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Vonz90 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:36 pm

It doesn't matter, a DDG has enough ass to get out of the way of / avoid any freighter in open ocean. If I had been OOD, I cannot say that I would have been expecting something like this, but I have seen enough weird shit from foreign merchant* men that the watch teams are always keeping an eye on them, especially if they are CBDR.

* they know that Navy ships will maneuver around them, so they sometimes just keep going even if they are the give way vessel.

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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby blackeagle603 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:58 pm

I doubt there there in the Muslim theories. That track is explanable by the freighter being on auto-helm, correcting course for a time on auto-helm after the collision. Then the helm was taken back into hands of a ship driver and returned towards the damaged USS to render assistance and loitering until released.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Steamforger » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:25 pm

I read this morning all 7 missing sailors were recovered in flooded berthings. For those who haven't done damage control on a ship, this means someone had to make the decision to close and dog that hatch knowing there may well be people left in the berthing. I can't even begin to imagine what that individual is going through. As an M Div guy, none of us were ever going to have to make that decision.

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Fitz thread on Reddit

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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Old Grafton » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:40 am

One of the seven dead is a local man but I mourn all seven. Fair winds and following seas, God speed, Gentlemen.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Vonz90 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:13 pm

Jericho941 wrote:
Jered wrote:According to BBC here:
Marine traffic records suggest the ACX Crystal made a sudden U-turn roughly 25 minutes before the collision with the USS Fitzgerald. It is not clear why it changed course.


Here is the traffic record


........was the boat captained by the caffeine spider?


Based on the damage and the track, it appears that the USS Fitzgerald was the give way vessel. Very strange, the Captain was still in his at sea cabin at the time of collision. Typical standing orders would be to get him on the deck for any vessel inside of 10k yards or with a CPA < 5k yards (or something like that, it varies ship to ship). Why wouldn't he be up and on the deck.

The merchant may have done something wrong, but it still looks like the OOD screwed up big time (and thus the CO, because the CO approves the OOD).

R/

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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby toad » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:57 am

Color me superstitious but I don't think I'll be getting on a ship with Fitzgerald in the name. I think it is just because the song keeps running through what is left of my brain, "The Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald ".

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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Jericho941 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:09 am

http://www.businessinsider.com/this-sai ... ald-2017-6

The Fitzgerald was struck below the waterline, and Rehm Jr.'s family was told by the Navy that he went under and saved at least 20 sailors, according to WBNS-10TV in Columbus, Ohio.

But when he went back down to get the other six sailors, the ship began to take on too much water, and the hatch was closed, WBNS-10TV said.

"That was Gary to a T,” Rehm Jr.'s friend Christopher Garguilo, told NBC4i in Columbus, Ohio. “He never thought about himself.”

"He called [the sailors on the ship] his kids," his uncle, Stanley Rehm Jr., told The Daily Beast. “He said, ‘If my kids die, I’m going to die.’”

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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby skb12172 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:37 pm

Jericho941 wrote:http://www.businessinsider.com/this-sailor-sacrificed-himself-save-20-lives-the-uss-fitzgerald-2017-6

The Fitzgerald was struck below the waterline, and Rehm Jr.'s family was told by the Navy that he went under and saved at least 20 sailors, according to WBNS-10TV in Columbus, Ohio.

But when he went back down to get the other six sailors, the ship began to take on too much water, and the hatch was closed, WBNS-10TV said.

"That was Gary to a T,” Rehm Jr.'s friend Christopher Garguilo, told NBC4i in Columbus, Ohio. “He never thought about himself.”

"He called [the sailors on the ship] his kids," his uncle, Stanley Rehm Jr., told The Daily Beast. “He said, ‘If my kids die, I’m going to die.’”



Dusty in here all of a sudden. Damn it. RIP, Sailor.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby D5CAV » Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:36 pm

Vonz90 wrote:It doesn't matter, a DDG has enough ass to get out of the way of / avoid any freighter in open ocean. If I had been OOD, I cannot say that I would have been expecting something like this, but I have seen enough weird shit from foreign merchant* men that the watch teams are always keeping an eye on them, especially if they are CBDR.

* they know that Navy ships will maneuver around them, so they sometimes just keep going even if they are the give way vessel.
+1

This.

+ other ships aren't allowed to have the kind of radars that US Navy ships have. At best, the container ship had a couple of $20,000 Furuno radars, and was probably on auto pilot.

Perhaps the skipper was not aware that there was nobody watching any of those super-top-secret, $10 million special US Navy radar sets made by some US defense contractor at 2am.

Perhaps the skipper was not aware that it was common practice to slack off and play cards after he went to bed.

The skipper shouldn't be worrying about his career. He should be worrying about manslaughter charges in his court martial.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Langenator » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:02 pm

Human error, especially in judging the crossing or overtaking bearing. See this from War on the Rocks: https://warontherocks.com/2017/06/how-c ... ns-at-sea/

The big thing that gets me, and what might get into negligent manslaughter (or whatever the UCMJ calls it) is why were crewmembers still in their berthing areas, apparently unaware? Why wasn't the collision alarm sounded? Even if the collision had still occurred, might the loss of life have been avoided if the bridge watch had sounded the collision alarm?

Was the CO notified? If so, why was he still in his cabin/stateroom? If not, why not, and what were the standing orders for alerting the captain? (I'm not Navy, but I've been a watch officer in battalion, brigade, and corps level operations centers. There is ALWAYS a list of things you wake up the CO for.)

My (landlubber) guess, from looking at the damage photos is that it was an overtaking situation, with the container ship overtaking the Fitz from the Fitz's starboard side. Now, which ship was the Give Way ship is the question, and I can't really tell from the photos that have been released. My guess is that, if the Fitz was going faster than the container ship, the Fitz was probably the give way ship. If the container ship was going faster, it might well have been the give way ship.

I'm sure the investigation will hash all of this out. But it will take time, and until then all we can do is speculate.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Vonz90 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:56 am

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/26 ... -says.html

I am a former Surface Warfare Officer for those who don't know. I do not what happened, but this sounds like utter BS. Ships do not react that quickly compared to a car or whatever, but 10 minutes are a long time non the less. This sounds like spin, especially as the relative damage suggest that they hit the Fitz with their bow on the Fitz's starboard side.

Looking at the damage, and the fact that the Fitz could out maneuver any merchant ship if she wanted - my guess is that the Fitz was overtaking the merchant on the merchant's port side (the normal way to do it). That made the Fitz the give way vessel. In that case the stand on vessel (the merchant) is required to maintain steady course/speed. They were probably not looking behind them and did not realize that they were being overtaken. They got to a predetermined way point (or for some other reason) they turned to port as the Fitz coming up abeam of them - then boom.

From the bridge of the Fitz at night, you would not see the change in aspect very quickly. They should have had someone on a repeater tracking the ship they were overtaking constantly (in CIC too), still they would pick it up pretty quickly if they were doing it anywhere close to right. If you see the move quickly enough, you just turn to starboard, pass port to port then turn to port and pass astern of them. If it is found out late, the DDG can go fast quick, the right action in that case would be to turn to port and hit ahead flank emergency - however - a lot of OOD's get "left is dead" burned into their brain - which has its application but is a bad thing to have stuck in your brain when it is the right thing to do.

So, apropos of nothing, but that is my guess. The merchant screwed up, and the DDG was not paying close enough attention to catch it / react in time.

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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Netpackrat » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:22 am

Thanks for the analysis, that seems to make sense.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Langenator » Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:19 am

Nevermind that what the merchant's captain is saying - that they signalled and were turning to avoid - is almost completely at odds with what at least one outside analyst said earlier - that, based on the known course track, the container ship was likely running on autopilot, either with nobody on the bridge, or the bridge watch asleep.

Who is more likely to be blowing smoke: the outside analyst with no skin in the game (other than his reputation for being right or wrong, where being wrong means he doesn't get called next time something like this happens), or the captain of one of the ships involved, who has every incentive to try to cover his ass?
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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby Vonz90 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:26 pm


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Re: USS Fitzgerald

Postby blackeagle603 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:58 pm

It is to weep, from these things we learn (and relearn). One the Nav does well as a rule is lessons learned applied to casualties and DC efforts.
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