Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

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Rich
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Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Rich » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:03 am

I read this off my Kindle using the Fox News app.

It seems the Navy and Marine aircraft training program has hit a snag with a mysterious hypoxia problem involving the T-45 trainer and possibly the F/A-18 Hornet. It seems several pilots have barely survived landing the airplane and having had to be lifted out of the cockpit and carried away. There have been several crashes and bail-outs where this has been pointed at as the possible cause.

Complicating the issue is one of those pilots is the son of our current Vice President, Mike Pence.

Finger pointing is already occurring with some of the pilots blaming the Admiral in charge of the Navy flight training program. The Navy has responded by not forcing student pilots to fly scheduled missions.

The aircraft involved are both assembled by Boeing in St. Louis and presumably use similar or the same oxygen systems.

Situation could get a lot messier.
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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Kommander » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:37 am

Any ideas as to why two planes that have been in use for decades old are suddenly having problems with their oxygen systems?

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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Netpackrat » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:10 am

Kommander wrote:Any ideas as to why two planes that have been in use for decades old are suddenly having problems with their oxygen systems?


Doesn't sound like it is a sudden thing.... The situation appears to have been building for years, and has now come to a head.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04 ... ected.html
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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Johnnyreb » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:55 am

The part that got me was how this has been a problem for 5 or 6 years. Since when has mighty America gotten to where something like this, that is a threat to the life of every pilot that flies that thing every time they fly it, can go on that long until the pilots have to mutiny en mass to get something done about it? Doesn't sound to me like one Admiral needs to get court martialed and locked up, but a bunch of them.

All that Naval aviation power won't mean much if people in numbers start saying "you know, I think I'll pass on being a naval aviator.".

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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby slowpoke » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:02 am

Johnnyreb wrote:The part that got me was how this has been a problem for 5 or 6 years. Since when has mighty America gotten to where something like this, that is a threat to the life of every pilot that flies that thing every time they fly it, can go on that long until the pilots have to mutiny en mass to get something done about it? Doesn't sound to me like one Admiral needs to get court martialed and locked up, but a bunch of them.

All that Naval aviation power won't mean much if people in numbers start saying "you know, I think I'll pass on being a naval aviator.".

Detroit syndrome on a national scale. Probably also tied to environmental regulations forcing material changes, kinda like the space shuttle tank, and many other things.
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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Netpackrat » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:44 am

slowpoke wrote:Probably also tied to environmental regulations forcing material changes, kinda like the space shuttle tank, and many other things.


That was my thought, as well. Note also how all fingers seem to be pointing at an admiral or admirals. I am sure we all remember reading about the previous administration purging the high ranks of officers suspected of un-progressive leanings... This could be one of the first visible acts in the military moving to correct some of that. Doubtless there will be more Obama era deadwood shunted aside, but this one makes the news because of the novelty of military officers not only going on strike, but apparently facing no punitive action for doing so. That, and the connection to the VP's son.
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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Rich » Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:51 pm

Navy has grounded the T-45 for three days to try to come up with a fix.

In my opinion, the oxygen system has several filters that remove contaminants from previous users and one or more of them isn't doing the job. Possibly because of the aforementioned environmental change.

Also in my opinion, the fix will be to change the filter or to inspect the system more often and change as necessary.
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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Vonz90 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:15 pm

slowpoke wrote:
Johnnyreb wrote:The part that got me was how this has been a problem for 5 or 6 years. Since when has mighty America gotten to where something like this, that is a threat to the life of every pilot that flies that thing every time they fly it, can go on that long until the pilots have to mutiny en mass to get something done about it? Doesn't sound to me like one Admiral needs to get court martialed and locked up, but a bunch of them.

All that Naval aviation power won't mean much if people in numbers start saying "you know, I think I'll pass on being a naval aviator.".

Detroit syndrome on a national scale. Probably also tied to environmental regulations forcing material changes, kinda like the space shuttle tank, and many other things.


Amen on that. People have no idea how valuable some materials are for some applications. The EU regulations driving removing trace lead from electrical components is causing all kinds of issues for no positive purpose at all.

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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby scipioafricanus » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:04 pm

A friend of mine was killed in a trainer a few years ago. I wonder if this was why...?
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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby randy » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:56 pm

IIRC they basically grounded the F-22 fleet for a similar issue a few years ago.
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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Jericho941 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:41 am

randy wrote:IIRC they basically grounded the F-22 fleet for a similar issue a few years ago.


The F-22 and F/A-18 both use the OBOGS system; I don't know what the T-45 uses.

AFAIK the F-15E's MSOGS has never had this kind of problem, but it may be bulkier and heavier. (The F-15C and A-10 are simply supplied with LOX bottles).

EDIT: Seems the F-35 also uses OBOGS but hasn't run into problems with it yet. Might have to ask some E&E guys about it.

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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Jericho941 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:21 am

Johnnyreb wrote:The part that got me was how this has been a problem for 5 or 6 years. Since when has mighty America gotten to where something like this, that is a threat to the life of every pilot that flies that thing every time they fly it, can go on that long until the pilots have to mutiny en mass to get something done about it? Doesn't sound to me like one Admiral needs to get court martialed and locked up, but a bunch of them.

All that Naval aviation power won't mean much if people in numbers start saying "you know, I think I'll pass on being a naval aviator.".


It's not just Naval (and Marine) aviation. Air Force pilots are also voting with their feet. IIRC, the AF is currently short by about 1,000 pilots and 3,000 maintainers.

As for how this happens: trying to fight 2+ wars on the cheap for over a decade, while "maintaining global presence," while making budget cuts, while also trying to keep up with technology: new planes, new ships, new weapons, etc. Something's gotta give, and the military decided that they'd focus on firing people, instead of telling Congress they were going to have to demand less or pay for the services they demanded.

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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Rich » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:35 am

Jericho941 wrote:As for how this happens: trying to fight 2+ wars on the cheap for over a decade, while "maintaining global presence," while making budget cuts, while also trying to keep up with technology: new planes, new ships, new weapons, etc. Something's gotta give, and the military decided that they'd focus on firing people, instead of telling Congress they were going to have to demand less or pay for the services they demanded.


Thus assuring our squeaky wheel squeaks sooner and louder. :shock:
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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Netpackrat » Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:37 am

According to this article, the T-45 also has OBOGS:

https://www.navytimes.com/story/militar ... /82255406/
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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby skb12172 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:24 pm

Rich wrote:
Jericho941 wrote:As for how this happens: trying to fight 2+ wars on the cheap for over a decade, while "maintaining global presence," while making budget cuts, while also trying to keep up with technology: new planes, new ships, new weapons, etc. Something's gotta give, and the military decided that they'd focus on firing people, instead of telling Congress they were going to have to demand less or pay for the services they demanded.


Thus assuring our squeaky wheel squeaks sooner and louder. :shock:

Could it also be that fewer potential recruits are interested in putting up with the PC culture of the modern military?
There must be an end to this intimidation by those who come to this great country, but reject its culture.

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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Jericho941 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:36 pm

skb12172 wrote:
Rich wrote:
Jericho941 wrote:As for how this happens: trying to fight 2+ wars on the cheap for over a decade, while "maintaining global presence," while making budget cuts, while also trying to keep up with technology: new planes, new ships, new weapons, etc. Something's gotta give, and the military decided that they'd focus on firing people, instead of telling Congress they were going to have to demand less or pay for the services they demanded.


Thus assuring our squeaky wheel squeaks sooner and louder. :shock:

Could it also be that fewer potential recruits are interested in putting up with the PC culture of the modern military?

I doubt it. Generally, "PC culture" isn't high on the list of most veterans' complaints. The problem isn't with recruiting, it's with retention.

Playing stupid games with personnel has won the fabulous stupid prizes of: people being stuck doing the work of three with only their separation date as an end in sight, a depleted and inexperienced NCO corps, and officers pursuing greener pastures in the private sector.

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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Rich » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:11 pm

The three day grounding of the T-45 has been extended to indefinitely as per Fox News.
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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby skb12172 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:29 pm

Well, that's just great. A perfect time fir us to piss off Russia and China by dicking around with Syria and NorK.
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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby Jericho941 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:46 am

skb12172 wrote:Well, that's just great. A perfect time fir us to piss off Russia and China by dicking around with Syria and NorK.

What in the blue hell does China have to do with anything?

I want to clarify something, in all my ranting of the criminal mismanagement of the US military post-9/11. Make no mistake: We are still the hardest motherfuckers the world has ever seen.

Russia's military is a joke. They're entirely reliant on conscripts, drug addiction is a huge problem, their NCO corps is virtually non-existent, their officers are doing it to check a box. Their little buffer zone trip into Ukraine has cost them dearly. Not in terms of military losses, but in faith with leadership in a military where precious little existed to begin with. If you're a Russian soldier and die fighting for a chunk of Ukraine, your death is written off as a training accident, which means your family is not entitled to the compensation they would receive if you'd suffered a combat death. Putin is a corrupt despot yearning for the glory days of the Soviet Union and he is living on borrowed time. Economically, they need the West far more than the West needs them.

I've mentioned before that Russia's found out the hard way that the whole "air expeditionary force" model isn't as easy as we make it look. Don't forget, please, that they are operating in an essentially permissive airspace to conduct airstrikes on hospitals. At our worst, we handily outperform their best. We already have more combat-ready F-35s than Russia has PAK-FAs planned. And their Navy really isn't in much better shape.

Seriously, if we had to draw a line in a sand with Russia and showed we were serious, either Russia would fold and fold hard, or their military would set mass desertion records and then they'd fold.

China's role in the middle east is non-existent. They are not going to go to bat for North Korea, either. If Kim Jong Whoever's-Not-Murdered decides that he's going to fuck up South Korea, he will, and he will reap the whirlwind while China looks the other way while rocking on their collective feet and whistling. They need us, they don't need North Korea for anything but Communist lip service, and they've been tired of footing that bill for a long time. The only thing China really uses the DPRK for anymore is a source of cheap labor. No; if we were to get into a pissing contest with China, it would be over Africa, which they are using as a bread basket.

Our military is, essentially, a mighty giant who's overworked and needs to have some suspicious lumps looked at. He's still the biggest, toughest bastard in the room but unless some serious issues are addressed, there is absolutely no guarantee things will stay that way.

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Re: Navy/USMC trainer pilot strike.

Postby blackeagle603 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:30 pm

threadjack...

Your morning dose of Juvat
It's very humbling to have to ride in your aircraft as it's being towed back to parking.

But I did get a lesson on the 4 most useless things to a Pilot.

1) Altitude above you.
2) Fuel in the truck.
3) Runway behind you
4) 10 seconds ago.

3 & 4 were relevant.


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