Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

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Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby skb12172 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:27 am

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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby g-man » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:13 am

Korean tank listed at #2 should be listed as an honorable mention vs. being on the list, as while it is a 'production vehicle', the fact that they had to close the paragraph with "So it should enter service with the South Korean Army soon." means it isn't really fielded.

Really, most of the list falls under this exception. Production tanks on order get trumped by STRYKERs, Bradleys... MRAPS... pretty much anything that's actually fielded. Just sayin.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby HTRN » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:22 am

g-man wrote:Korean tank listed at #2 should be listed as an honorable mention vs. being on the list, as while it is a 'production vehicle', the fact that they had to close the paragraph with "So it should enter service with the South Korean Army soon." means it isn't really fielded.

Really, most of the list falls under this exception. Production tanks on order get trumped by STRYKERs, Bradleys... MRAPS... pretty much anything that's actually fielded. Just sayin.

I agree, and even then, its till not quite as good as the abrams.

Was he challenger on the list? If not it should be.

I doo think the new leopard is arguably the the best MBT in the world right now, at least until the a3 abrams comes out.. :ugeek: :mrgreen:
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Jericho941 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:27 am

Honestly this generation of tanks is pretty boring, comparison-wise. The prototypes are, well, prototypes.

All Merkava series tanks have a rear compartment which can be used to carry troops and cargo under armor. It can carry up to 10 troops when ammunition is unloaded.


All ammunition unloaded. I don't think people realize just how little room the Merkava has for this, and as a result it has a reputation as an APC with an MBT gun.

It's not.

Honestly, of all the tanks on this that're actually in service proper, the Merkava has least business being on it.

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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Jered » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:02 am

They sure like Russian tanks. The T-90 is basically an updated T-72, and the Armata doesn't seem to run right.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Rod » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:08 pm

Sheesh, looking down the list, my feeling is that the number 1 tank should be the Abrams. It's the only tank that's actually been in combat. Did you notice also that tanks are beginning to be like automobiles, every one looks nearly the same. Of course that's because of experimentation and design. Certain things just work better.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby HTRN » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:51 pm

Rod wrote:Sheesh, looking down the list, my feeling is that the number 1 tank should be the Abrams. It's the only tank that's actually been in combat.

No, the a7 is better, due to newerLeopard fcs, a longer main gun, and much bettter armor in top surfaces, something the A2 Abrams is notoriously short on., and is especially worrying due to proliferation of top attack, man portable ATGW, especially from Russia. Dont worry, the A3 Abrams is in the development cycle right now. :mrgreen:
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Vonz90 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:40 pm

The M1 obviously has a lot more, but the leopard 2 have seen combat in Afghanistan and the Turks have used them against ISIS, possibly including some tank to tank ops for the Turks.

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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby D5CAV » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:29 pm

Also need to look at number produced. 100 Korean tanks make those about as common as Bugatti Veyron roadsters. Even if you are an active duty cavalryman, you have a better chance of seeing a Veyron in the parking lot at a shopping mall than meeting a Korean K2 Black Panther tank on the battlefield.

My top 5 list would be:
Leopard 2 Mk 7
Abrams M1A2/A3
Whatever the Russians are using for their latest MBT
Whatever the Chinese are using for their latest MBT
LeClerc (not really enough production volume to make the list, but it's a pretty good tank on paper)

The Challenger is too heavy for it's powerplant (typical British design) so whatever the production numbers (even less than the LeClerc), it fails.

After that, I don't care. I'm not sure why the Koreans and Japanese bother with building their own tanks. Their numbers are so small, it's like the 1960's Swiss tanks (about 200 beautifully produced, overpriced tanks). After that disaster, the Swiss got smart and bought Leopard 2s.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby skb12172 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:00 am

Asian Pride. That's why.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby HTRN » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:39 am

D5CAV wrote:The Challenger is too heavy for it's powerplant (typical British design) so whatever the production numbers (even less than the LeClerc), it fails..

The power plant issue is one of the two makjor complaints about it, its two slow, and it has horrible reliability, because its underpowered. Theres also doznes of minor design defects ive heard complained about them online from people who have first hand experience with them.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby randy » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:00 am

skb12172 wrote:Asian Pride. That's why.


That and a couple of others

1. The growing realization that the US may not always be willing to be there depending on who's in office during a crisis and how much they are willing piss off the Russians or PRC. Having a domestic capability gives them a back up and maybe some leverage.

2. I'm not familiar with the actual specs of the ROK and JSDF tanks, but I know in the late 80's early 90's there was discussion of producing units tailored for their specific environments (average carry capacity of their bridges, railway stock, terrain etc.) vs units designed to operate world wide with a US logistical and engineering capacity to back them up.

3. Again, going back to the 80's, the possibility of an export market for countries wanting something without the strings (let alone price) that came attached with US or Soviet/Russian designs. Don't know if that still is a factor.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Greg » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:28 am

randy wrote:
skb12172 wrote:Asian Pride. That's why.


That and a couple of others

1. The growing realization that the US may not always be willing to be there depending on who's in office during a crisis and how much they are willing piss off the Russians or PRC. Having a domestic capability gives them a back up and maybe some leverage.

2. I'm not familiar with the actual specs of the ROK and JSDF tanks, but I know in the late 80's early 90's there was discussion of producing units tailored for their specific environments (average carry capacity of their bridges, railway stock, terrain etc.) vs units designed to operate world wide with a US logistical and engineering capacity to back them up.

3. Again, going back to the 80's, the possibility of an export market for countries wanting something without the strings (let alone price) that came attached with US or Soviet/Russian designs. Don't know if that still is a factor.


Also the Japanese use the defense budget explicitly as a jobs program.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Greg » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:29 am

D5CAV wrote:Also need to look at number produced. 100 Korean tanks make those about as common as Bugatti Veyron roadsters. Even if you are an active duty cavalryman, you have a better chance of seeing a Veyron in the parking lot at a shopping mall than meeting a Korean K2 Black Panther tank on the battlefield.

My top 5 list would be:
Leopard 2 Mk 7
Abrams M1A2/A3
Whatever the Russians are using for their latest MBT
Whatever the Chinese are using for their latest MBT
LeClerc (not really enough production volume to make the list, but it's a pretty good tank on paper)

The Challenger is too heavy for it's powerplant (typical British design) so whatever the production numbers (even less than the LeClerc), it fails.

After that, I don't care. I'm not sure why the Koreans and Japanese bother with building their own tanks. Their numbers are so small, it's like the 1960's Swiss tanks (about 200 beautifully produced, overpriced tanks). After that disaster, the Swiss got smart and bought Leopard 2s.


Numbers are a problem with every one listed. Iirc, Germany is down to around 200 Leopards in service.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby D5CAV » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:13 am

Greg wrote:
D5CAV wrote:Also need to look at number produced. 100 Korean tanks make those about as common as Bugatti Veyron roadsters. Even if you are an active duty cavalryman, you have a better chance of seeing a Veyron in the parking lot at a shopping mall than meeting a Korean K2 Black Panther tank on the battlefield.

My top 5 list would be:
Leopard 2 Mk 7
Abrams M1A2/A3
Whatever the Russians are using for their latest MBT
Whatever the Chinese are using for their latest MBT
LeClerc (not really enough production volume to make the list, but it's a pretty good tank on paper)

The Challenger is too heavy for it's powerplant (typical British design) so whatever the production numbers (even less than the LeClerc), it fails.

After that, I don't care. I'm not sure why the Koreans and Japanese bother with building their own tanks. Their numbers are so small, it's like the 1960's Swiss tanks (about 200 beautifully produced, overpriced tanks). After that disaster, the Swiss got smart and bought Leopard 2s.


Numbers are a problem with every one listed. Iirc, Germany is down to around 200 Leopards in service.

I don't know the numbers on Russian and Chinese tanks, but the US Army bought about a thousand M1A1s and almost as many M1A2s. M1A3 numbers may be in the 200 range. I don't know.

Same with the Leopard 2s. There are a couple of thousand that have been built, including several hundred of the very popular and very good Mark 5 model. Mark 7s may only be in the low hundreds range, and the HEER may indeed be down to a couple of hundred Mark 5s and Mark 7s.

LeClerc production numbers are certainly not more than the few-hundred range. I don't think they were fielded by anyone besides the French.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Vonz90 » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:58 pm

D5CAV wrote:
Greg wrote:
D5CAV wrote:Also need to look at number produced. 100 Korean tanks make those about as common as Bugatti Veyron roadsters. Even if you are an active duty cavalryman, you have a better chance of seeing a Veyron in the parking lot at a shopping mall than meeting a Korean K2 Black Panther tank on the battlefield.

My top 5 list would be:
Leopard 2 Mk 7
Abrams M1A2/A3
Whatever the Russians are using for their latest MBT
Whatever the Chinese are using for their latest MBT
LeClerc (not really enough production volume to make the list, but it's a pretty good tank on paper)

The Challenger is too heavy for it's powerplant (typical British design) so whatever the production numbers (even less than the LeClerc), it fails.

After that, I don't care. I'm not sure why the Koreans and Japanese bother with building their own tanks. Their numbers are so small, it's like the 1960's Swiss tanks (about 200 beautifully produced, overpriced tanks). After that disaster, the Swiss got smart and bought Leopard 2s.


Numbers are a problem with every one listed. Iirc, Germany is down to around 200 Leopards in service.

I don't know the numbers on Russian and Chinese tanks, but the US Army bought about a thousand M1A1s and almost as many M1A2s. M1A3 numbers may be in the 200 range. I don't know.

Same with the Leopard 2s. There are a couple of thousand that have been built, including several hundred of the very popular and very good Mark 5 model. Mark 7s may only be in the low hundreds range, and the HEER may indeed be down to a couple of hundred Mark 5s and Mark 7s.

LeClerc production numbers are certainly not more than the few-hundred range. I don't think they were fielded by anyone besides the French.


UAE bought a few hundred Leclerc tanks but with the drive trains from the Leopard.

It was in the news that the Heer bought back like 200 Leopards but I am not sure if they are in service yet.

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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby slowpoke » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:03 am

Greg wrote:
randy wrote:
skb12172 wrote:Asian Pride. That's why.


That and a couple of others

1. The growing realization that the US may not always be willing to be there depending on who's in office during a crisis and how much they are willing piss off the Russians or PRC. Having a domestic capability gives them a back up and maybe some leverage.

2. I'm not familiar with the actual specs of the ROK and JSDF tanks, but I know in the late 80's early 90's there was discussion of producing units tailored for their specific environments (average carry capacity of their bridges, railway stock, terrain etc.) vs units designed to operate world wide with a US logistical and engineering capacity to back them up.

3. Again, going back to the 80's, the possibility of an export market for countries wanting something without the strings (let alone price) that came attached with US or Soviet/Russian designs. Don't know if that still is a factor.


Also the Japanese use the defense budget explicitly as a jobs program.

So no different than the US?
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Greg » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:39 pm

slowpoke wrote:
Greg wrote:
randy wrote:
skb12172 wrote:Asian Pride. That's why.


That and a couple of others

1. The growing realization that the US may not always be willing to be there depending on who's in office during a crisis and how much they are willing piss off the Russians or PRC. Having a domestic capability gives them a back up and maybe some leverage.

2. I'm not familiar with the actual specs of the ROK and JSDF tanks, but I know in the late 80's early 90's there was discussion of producing units tailored for their specific environments (average carry capacity of their bridges, railway stock, terrain etc.) vs units designed to operate world wide with a US logistical and engineering capacity to back them up.

3. Again, going back to the 80's, the possibility of an export market for countries wanting something without the strings (let alone price) that came attached with US or Soviet/Russian designs. Don't know if that still is a factor.


Also the Japanese use the defense budget explicitly as a jobs program.

So no different than the US?


No, they're far worse about it than we are.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Jericho941 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:26 pm

Knowing you'll probably never have to use your hardware for real makes it really easy to gold plate everything.

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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby toad » Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:56 am

I'm thinking about an old story about a Canadian units encounter with Abrams during a training exercise in Germany back in the day. The thing that stuck with me is that the Canadian said he could not hear the Abrams because of their quieter turbine engines and got surprised when they popped out of the trees on his flank.
So the big problem these days for a tank may be trying to hide from all the AI weaponry that is in the air and in space. Not a problem so much with third world armies but if it is ever peer or near peer combat things could get nasty.
I guess tanks are going to have to get more active defenses and have drones of their own out to keep AI bombs and artillery shells off of them :?:

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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby HTRN » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:08 am

Thats my thinking as well, the future of tank killing belongs to long loiter drones equipped with small jdam munitions.

Meanwhile, i see electric motors and fuelcells as the future drive train, combined with sealed turrets and electrothermal cannons, along with active protection systems.. At least until the tanks become drones themselves.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby skb12172 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:05 pm

Bolo!
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby HTRN » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:24 pm

Actually, i think its going to go the other way - smaller, lighter fire support weapons for infantry. Small fast, low emission, equipped with something like a bofors 57mm.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Vonz90 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:33 pm

My guess on what you will see on the next gen tanks is actually just stuff that is being retrofitted on current gen.

More active armor - especially protection from top attack.

Active anti-missile defense (including both mini-missiles and laser) and organic air defense (most likely missile but ????)

Ability to control remotes drones (both for targeting and with weapons systems)

OTH / non LOS weapons systems

All of this will push up the weight / cost. Thus it will probably come with a "low" cousin system for lower threat environments that can be used as a support weapon for the high threat environments.

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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby toad » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:40 am

skb12172 wrote:Bolo!


"look at the little toy tank! ZWark! UH....What happened to the barrel of my rifle? Mini Bolo.

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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby HTRN » Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:40 pm

Vonz90 wrote:Active anti-missile defense (including both mini-missiles and laser) and organic air defense (most likely missile but ????)

Quick Kill is probably going to be the first system used by the US, it was developed after seeing Israels "Trophy" system being installed on Merkavas. Its basically a bunch of claymore directional mines hooked to a computer equipped with radar.
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Windy Wilson » Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:02 am

HOW MANY are fielded and would be used if the army went to war? This is an object lesson of General Patton's statement about how almost any plan, executed today will beat the best plan in the world executed tomorrow" .
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Re: Top 10 Main Battle Tanks

Postby Vonz90 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:48 pm

Windy Wilson wrote:HOW MANY are fielded and would be used if the army went to war? This is an object lesson of General Patton's statement about how almost any plan, executed today will beat the best plan in the world executed tomorrow" .


Patton's statement (which is really just him rephrasing Clausewitz - of whom he was a fan) regards operations.

Arming prior to a war or upgrading is a bit different. You can certainly screw yourself by spending all of your efforts on some technology that does doesn't pan out, but you can also screw yourself by sticking with a platform that is obsolete.


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